Mesa or SkyWest????

[blade230]

Note: this is not a pro PFT post, nor is it negative. just informational.


China Clipper you are WAY off. Many of the guys that sit on top of the COMAIR seniority list, the same guys who negotiated the industry's best regioanal contract, PFT'd.

Someone please tell me HOW PFTers are lowering the pay scale/ work rules, when many PFTers are the ones responsible for RAISING it.

I am not saying PFT is a good thing for the industry, I am also not saying it is bad. But one thing PFTers are not doing as a group, is driving wages down. The PFTers I know, want to be paid just as well, if not more than some ex-CFI types, to pay off their loans which they used to PFT in the first place.

That brings up another point, I have only met 1 rich person who PFTed in my life, so I guess that argument isn't exactly valid is it.

And yes, PACE Dudes bought their jobs also.

 

[daddysquared]

searching

So, I guess you would put <insert name of flight school here> in the same EXACT SAME classification as well.

The problem that most have with Paying For Training, is that places like Gulfstream place a paying student in a right seat that would be otherwise occupied by a "Paid" First Officer. Hence, a company that should be paying a professional pilot is instead getting paid to have that position filled. It would seem to me that such companies are taking advantage of desparate pilots trying to accrue time. From what I understand about PACE, that isn't what is going on there.

And how did yet another thread on this board turn into a PFT debate. Crap, even I got sucked into this.

350 and China, I hope to share a flight deck with you gentlemen (or ladies) someday.

Carry on.

 

[350DRIVER]

350 and China, I hope to share a flight deck with you gentlemen (or ladies) someday.

The feeling is surely mutual..



Amazing what some guys can come up with on this site.

3 5 0 (gent.)

 

[blade230]

daddysquared,

I would say that any "program" that you pay a large sum of money for an interview, is buying a job.

PACE claims the same success rate as Gulfstream, 90% placement. Other than the fact Gulfstream is pay for time also, I don't see any difference in terms of "buying" a shot at an interview.

 

[350DRIVER]

blade230,

The difference is relatively very easy to see and understand here.. It is like comparing night to day, very different. You are doing nothing more than "renting" a right seat out at Gulf for a little more than $19,000 or so for the 250 hours. You are doing nothing of the sort at Mesa, you are merely taking a chance on getting the interview should you pass all training that is required in a short time frame. You are given no preference nothing along those lines at all. SM who is now ATA I am sure can fill you in on this one since he works the sim there on his days off.. Very clear and pretty simple here.


According to your logic then the guys who pay those large sums of money to attend FSI, Pan Am, etc, are all buying jobs as well, come on....

PACE claims the same success rate as Gulfstream, 90% placement. Other than the fact Gulfstream is pay for time also, I don't see any difference in terms of "buying" a shot at an interview.

Once again, you are not renting a right seat out for 250 hours for $19,000 at Pace- big difference here. How many people who show up with a blank check at Gulf end up washing out? I kind of thought so, compare that wash out rate to PACE and MAPD and you will see another big difference.


3 5 0

 

[blade230]

I agree with you about the fact that PACE, you do not buy right seat time.

No, Flight Safety is not a pay for a job place. However, the ASA program they had was probably the most clearly defined, perfect example of buying a job though. But that program is not in existence any more. Pan Am, no, that isn't either.

PACE, 300 hour pilots, (less hours than Gulf "graduates" by the way), pay a huge sum of money for an interview. 300 hours, asside from the argument that Gulfstream is removing a paid pilot position with their program, how are the programs different. Enigma on another thread was arguing that PFT puts unqualified people in cockpits. With this train of thought, 300 hour PACE pilots who bought their interview, are just as unqualified as Gulfstream guys, infact, more unqualified, most Gulfstream guys have at least 500-600 hours, many with alot more.

Low time people pay money for a shot at an interview, how is this not PFT?

Anyways, I get the feeling we will not agree on this, and it is not even my argument,

Going to bed,
CHeers

 

[airbuslovely]

Plain and simple answer, GO TO SKYWEST. I hear it is a great company to work for. Honest management. You don't find that to often. Though my company has great management also. Must be a Mormon thing.

There sure is a select few on this board who love to talk about P-F-T. I really don't know why. Who the hell cares? I have never once heard a bad, or good, thing said about this issue in over 25 years in this buisness. And most I fly with are familiar with these programs. NOBODY cares.

 

[350DRIVER]

blade230,

You are correct about FSI and others but those who attend these programs are still paying a very hefty and substantial price tag to do training there versus doing it part 61 at a local mom and pops operation. Some of these more well known (more expensive) programs/schools do have agreements with a few select regionals out there to get you the interview once you have X amount of hours, etc, etc, etc.

PACE, 300 hour pilots, (less hours than Gulf "graduates" by the way), pay a huge sum of money for an interview. 300 hours, asside from the argument that Gulfstream is removing a paid pilot position with their program, how are the programs different. Enigma on another thread was arguing that PFT puts unqualified people in cockpits. With this train of thought, 300 hour PACE pilots who bought their interview, are just as unqualified as Gulfstream guys, infact, more unqualified, most Gulfstream guys have at least 500-600 hours, many with alot more.

With all due respect to Enigma he is not overly well versed on making such a statement that is pretty much not correct or valid at all. It is his personal views and feelings, has he flown with these 300 hour guys?, I think not... What you need to realize is that these "300 hour" guys are trained from day 1 to use Mesa standardization and procedures and if you are not up to par then they will wash you out without a second thought. It does not matter if you have 300 hours or 5000 hours, these grads STILL must pass interview, indoc, systems, sim, oral, checkride, IOE, etc . Once again none of these grads are given a "free ride" due to the fact that they have only 300 hours... If you do some research you will see that once they are line qualified they have no problems at all.. If they were not up to par then they would not pass the rides/testing/etc, bottom line... Are they qualified and ready at this point? I would have to say so as most others would.

So when you say these guys are "underqualified" I do not think much "fact" is behind such a statement since obviously we know that they are not given a break due to their TT and background.
I have quite a few friends at Mesa that would fly with the San Juan grads any day of the week and they have had no negative things to say towards these guys. You may hate them for being in the right seat at 300 hours but do not think they are "not qualified" since the facts speak for itself. Engima and most others have no personal experience with these guys, talk to the guys that fly the line with them and you will see fact from fiction.

Low time people pay money for a shot at an interview, how is this not PFT?

You are not "renting a seat " at Mesa for X amount of hours- low time or high time does not matter.. God forbid Gulf had to actually hire first officers and pay them more than $8.00/hr to fly right seat, big difference.

Anyways, I get the feeling we will not agree on this, and it is not even my argument,

We can always agree to disagree,

3 5 0

 

[Chairman]

Only those on property by Jan 30th will be eligible to vote. So that is not the reason for the class reduction the company doesn't play games like that.

 

[SWEMB120]

I have to agree with 350 on the PFT subject.

ATRCA,

Since XJT management is the one who made the decision to give away their turbo prop routes why do XJT pilots have to post on here SKW stole XJT's flying. Their own management gave it away. If SKW turned down flying and XJT picked it up how could the pilots at SKW blame XJT??? That is called ignorance!
The guys who came from XJT to here have told me that it seem like XJT has you take baby steps through training and SKW makes you take full steps. They said SKW training was a little more difficult.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Hey,
Mesa or Skywest, do what will work for you best in the long run. I have been at SKYW for 4+ years and it's been good, not perfect, but it worked for me. If I had to commute across the country to visit the family, it woulda been different. The music has stopped in the industry if you had a chair you are lucky, if not, its tough duty. Remember your first year will result in welfare wages at both, and at SKYW you will not be paid for your training. It might be possible to step aside for the Mesa class date until a more concrete date for SKYW comes available. Regardless one must take into consideration, the fact is the industry is very uncertain and even though there is music playing faintly somerwhere and some chairs are available, it could stop and you may be stuck for quite awhile. You should ask yourself is this where I could hang out for an extended period?
As far as having ones wagon hitched to UAL vs USair, do your own assessment as to who is closer to failure mode and decide accordingly.
OH yes, to all of you booger eating idiots who think throwing insults and other hate at Mesa pilots is ok, good luck with the rest of your pathetic lives.
To all you Mesa pilots, I will be the SKYW guy at QueBueno(DEN) and other places who says hello and have a good day! We are all pilots and, in this together..
PBR

 

[ChinaClipper]

Wow, some decent points for once.......

Usually at this point in a post about Mesa, no2bottmfeeders, mcpickle or some other ray of sunshine pipes in with something that reminds us that not every parent believed in corporal punishment....PBR is da man though, I had many interactions with SkyWesters in the past and to a person, they have been a class act. Mesa is a great place to go and get a fast upgrade and challenging flying AND LEAVE! SkyWest would be a big improvement if you want your experience a bit slower and better QOL, not to mention that you don't have to be lead by the worlds biggest shyster, Johnny Lorenzornstein, rider of small motorcycles. Careful about Quebueno, the food occasionally comes out faster than it went in........BTW its what you KEEP in pay, not so much what you get paid. A 2nd year Mesa RJ captain living in DEN would probably be better off in takehome pay than many "better paying" 2nd year FO at a "better" company based in the higher tax East Coast. Factor in the fact you'll see less beet juice drinking, socially aware wankers with dreadlocks or chicks with hairy under arms (BTV? etc) and its just about worth it... Excluding the Peoples Republic of Boulder! Good luck......

 

[WmuBronco]

Well go to Mesa if they call you with a class date first. Then when Skywest calls, you can leave and go to a respectable place. This way you SCREW MESA. They end up wasting there money on you. Hopefully you are just about through with simulator training when you get the class date at SkyWest. That will pull a little bit of money out of JO's pockets. Whatever you do, don't stay at MESA. Go to SKYWEST!! I worked therey for a little bit, and it's a good place. Just need to fix that B.S. 70 seater pay. Which should happen soon, or you'll see a union there.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Beware,
Be careful about taking the Mesa job and leaving when SKYW calls. The pilot records act will show you working at Mesa and leaving shortly after hire to SKYW. This will be in your packet forever, it could cause problems later with future employers, ie. job hopping, unable to complete trng, or any other possible excuse one might attach to short employment spans. Plus it's just not right to behave like an irresponsable slacker. If I was to interview you with such an event in your record, we would spend a large amount of time trying to find out what the real reason was for the quick jump from company to company. Would you want to hire a pilot that had no problem taking thousands of dollars worth of training, knowing that they intended to leave before you could recoup that investment? "Good moral character"
is not just a requirement for the ATP, it's necessary when you hand a pair of pilots an aircraft worth millions of dollars and my family in the back.
PBR

 

[s.o.sJTB]

Would you want to hire a pilot that had no problem taking thousands of dollars worth of training, knowing that they intended to leave before you could recoup that investment? "Good moral character"

PBR

Lets talk about Jerry O's "moral character", when asked in a USA Today interview about his low wages for pilots (after discussing his 16 motercycles) he reponded with "I dont have a problem filling new hire classes". He is not shy of taking advantage of you, take the Mesa class and if a call to Skywest comes RUN dont Walk! dont look back! keep moving....

 

[superrav]

should be a ceo

 

[hyperboy]

Jayspilot

Apparently you are just as ignorant as the rest that talk of how good comair was for the industry and how bad mesa is. We have heared it all. Why don't you consider and let others not as educated know that times were different post and prior 9/11 Don't you think that is a lil important? If not I guess you can show us again but why should I care does my contract effect you? Certainly not ------just as yours did'nt help me.
If you think that mesa is at the bottom certainly you show all your ignorance by those who have earned there time flying for shady companies where maint. is considered obselete and the safety of pilots is compromised on a daily basis. Why not mention these types of operations that many of us have come from. Maybe you would know nothing about this? If so insert foot into Mouth, for again being ignorant then again I am sure you are a pro pay for trainer while again nobly bashing MESA you must live in a small whole. How did you get your time if your so worried about all of us at MESA? If you did it as mentioned above, again ignorant .if not and you paid for your training, would you really be honest and tell us? Have a great day!

By the way----you win bashing Mesa makes you super cool!

 

[PBRstreetgang]

Jeez guys,
"Lets talk about Jerry O's "moral character", when asked in a USA Today interview about his low wages for pilots (after discussing his 16 motercycles)". Lemme see, he's a crook, so it's OK to be less than ethical in ones behavior? Lack of personal character is not exactly a trait a company would want when releasing expensive equipment and 50 or so lives. When ya gonna grow a pair Francis?(metaphorically speaking).
PBR

 

[furloughita]

Skywest=very good company to work for.....good bases, good folks. Seems they are not as happy as they were 3-4 years ago, though....


Mesa=fast upgrade. No guarantee of jet, right? Upgrade is everything. PIC is everything. (done the RIGHT way=aka not the Freedom way). Make your mark and put a strong voice in on the next contract. Too many loafers letting a few do all the work--at ALL airlines!

Do pilots look down on Mesa?= Seems like: Only if you're working for a regional and are savvy to this board. Otherwise, the major guys have no clue. They are on a whole different mindset=got dreamjob, not so much into all the other airlines' goings-on, especially not the regionals. Seriously. Jumpseated on UAL and they didn't even know what Freedom was--NOT THAT I AM ENDORSING THAT (Freedom=bad). A few years ago, I remember the bashing was directed at Trans States. It's gonna be somebody.

Just for a note, I have seen ocnl backwards badges everywhere I have worked for whatever reason....? I think someone's reading into something?

Take the first class you get. Training contracts are not enforceable until you take a sim check, I believe....make your decision based on what you get assigned and whenever SkyWest calls. Don't base your career on trying to please us. At the same time, do the right thing no matter where you go. Good Luck.

 

[whiff]

Don't think the class downsizing had anything to do w/the union vote. You had to have been on property Jan. 20th when the cards went in to be able to vote.