MESA on 60 day notice?

[SYXDude]

Who's operating the Jet for US Airways and Midwest? I thought that was PSA because I remembered reading that PSA was the first operator of the Jet.

Wrong. Skyway was the launch customer for the DorkJet and only 3 operators in the world fly the DorkJet for airliner use. Skyway, ACA (Delta), and Hainan in China. PSA flies the DorkProp.

Later

 

[DrRaptor]

K. Thanks for the correction. All of my books are pre-Jet, so I don't have any reliable information on who's operating them. I don't usually use Airliners or Jetphotos either because half the photographers get it wrong.

 

[rightrudder]

Oh, and the thing with the 328's being too expensive to maintain, then why is it that in 2000, ZW purchased almost $10 million in parts for the aircraft to put in stores?

Most of the parts that these planes use on a normal are still produced, because they were all bought by Fairchild-Dornier (or Daimler-Chrysler-Dornier depending on which plane you were looking at) to be put on the aircraft (engines, fasteners, tires, brakes, hoses, etc), so the aircraft going out of production didn't equal the price going up as was previously claimed. If that was the case, then -

AAL wouldn't be flying F-100s
PSA wouldn't be flying 328Jets
Air Tahoma wouldn't be flying Convair 240s and Convair 580s at 2/3 the price of an ATR-42 and ATR-72 respectively.

Just because the company that built the plane isn't around anymore or doesn't build the plane anymore doesn't necessarily mean that the cost of maintenance goes up. If that was true without fault, then many of the Douglas DC-3, -6, -7, and -8 aircraft wouldn't be flying still. You wouldn't see the 727 in such numbers on the freight lines, you certainly wouldn't see our Convairs in the air.

Reference other posts, PSA doesn't operate Dork jets, they have props, and as I understand it, they are planning on getting rid of them.

Look dude, I work for AWAC and you don't. Don't try to tell me what my company is doing when you have no actual first hand knowlege of what has been going on here. I was flying the 328 and I know all about the problems we had with parts. The aircraft was also not the most reliable. It had a lot of items without MEL relief. Our owners did not want to operate the 328's any longer and got rid of them at the first opportunity. A lot of us pilots were unhappy with that decision.

 

[DrRaptor]

I worked for Air Wisconsin for 4 months only to be laid off after Sept. 11th. I then returned to DIA and worked for ASIG for 2 years beginning in Feb. 2002, so I was around for the whole deal. Hell, I was fueling the 328s right up through the last day of operations. I know what the problems were, and while they may not have been extremely reliable, they were as reliable as the DASH-8s are now, and the parts themselves weren't as expensive as you say nor did the price suddenly skyrocket after F-D shutdown. I knew most of the 328 mechanics at DEN, and talked to them about these things, so I know what the maintenance side is.

 

[TWheat61]

Look raptor, you need to give it up because you are dead wrong on the 328's. I don't know about TODAY, but when Dornier went under there was a lack of parts for those airplanes. In fact, all of the 328 operators in the US banded together and were sharing parts to keep there respective fleets operating.

And as for the financing of our aircraft, we are backed by the Canadian government and not United.

 

[frjmx328]

Look raptor, you need to give it up because you are dead wrong on the 328's. I don't know about TODAY, but when Dornier went under there was a lack of parts for those airplanes. In fact, all of the 328 operators in the US banded together and were sharing parts to keep there respective fleets operating.

And as for the financing of our aircraft, we are backed by the Canadian government and not United.

Huh? Unless my memory is failing me, the only parts that ACA used that other carriers used was engines. Due to power by the hour agreements with PWC, PWC had a pool of engines on hand and would dispatch accordingly.

Worked the Jet three years, and the only part I ever borrowed from another carrier was a boot patch, and the occasional screw.

 

[J32driver]

and the parts themselves weren't as expensive as you say nor did the price suddenly skyrocket after F-D shutdown. I knew most of the 328 mechanics at DEN, and talked to them about these things, so I know what the maintenance side is.

Actually.... when Fairchild went into insolvency, the airplane did become prohibitively expensive to operate. It wasn't because the price of an individual part increased. AWAC had a "power by the hour" contract with Fairchild that made engines CHEAP!!! When Fairchild filed for insolvency, that agreement was suddenly null and void. AWAC suddenly found themselves stuck with the full operating price for the 328.

Raptor... listen to what the folks on this board are telling you. They are correct in everything I've read so far.

 

[DrRaptor]

"TWheat" - First, if you'll re-read what I said, I clarified and said that when AWAC was originally wanting to put the ARJ, RJX, or CRJ-700/900 on the line, United was the garunteeor on the AWAC loans. That has obviously changed and I DIDN'T DISPUTE THAT other than to say that AWAC as late as 2004 was still not willing to purchase aircraft and then bid on the contract after making a purchase, so they were still looking to UAL to give them a contract before purchasing the aircraft.

"J32 Driver" - Funny, because the post before yours said that PWC picked up the contract, and I can very quickly ask a couple of people how fast that "Power-By-The-Hour" contract was transferred to PWC. I know that it was pretty quick because it happened while I was at DEN, and I watched and engine change at COS in early 2003 while visiting a mechanic I'd met while at AWAC. The boxes the turbine parts came in clearly said PWC on them, not Fairchild, and had been shipped direct from Pratt's factory in Longueuil.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

Raptor,

I think we're disputing a vocabulary lesson here. AWAC's loans for new RJ's came from the Canadian government. As I said before, we were one of the only airlines to qualify for these loans as we are privately owned as opposed to a publicly traded company. That does not mean that United could guarantee those loans. To guarantee a loan just means that you will pay the balance of the loan if the primary holder of the loan defaults on the payments. For example, if I wanted to buy a house, most mortgage companies would laugh at me when I asked for a loan. However, if I had my parents guarantee the loan then they would probably be willing to give me the money because my parents would be liable for the debt if I could no longer pay it off. On a side note, I'd be very surprised if United were allowed to guarantee a loan today while in bankruptcy. I'm not sure their bankruptcy agreement allows it and I'm sure the Canadian government is jumping at the chance to let a company in bankruptcy guarantee a multi million dollar loan. I could be wrong about all this but I'm pretty sure United was not planning to purchase any more aircraft on behalf of AWAC.

 

[DrRaptor]

Well, like I said, back when I was in Denver and after I left AWAC, UAL basically dictated what AWAC flew because they were the only people AWAC flew for. AWAC went to UAL and asked if United would use the airplanes that they wanted to buy, and UAL would say yes or no. Whether or not they garunteed the loans wasn't an issue at that point either since AWAC had it's own funding. But during 2000 and 2001, AWAC's loans were garunteed by UAL, and UAL had final say on any AWAC purchases of aircraft. AWAC took over Lone Star only because UAL said to and because UAL said they'd continue to use the Do-328.

 

[J32driver]

"J32 Driver" - Funny, because the post before yours said that PWC picked up the contract, and I can very quickly ask a couple of people how fast that "Power-By-The-Hour" contract was transferred to PWC. I know that it was pretty quick because it happened while I was at DEN, and I watched and engine change at COS in early 2003 while visiting a mechanic I'd met while at AWAC. The boxes the turbine parts came in clearly said PWC on them, not Fairchild, and had been shipped direct from Pratt's factory in Longueuil.

The post above mine was about the Do JET at ACA !!! 2 different engines and 2 different companies. And of course the box said PWC on the side at COS... who makes the engine... ???? Surely you don't think a Pratt engine will show up in a Fairchild Box?

Fact of the matter, Fairchild paid for the engines until they went into insolvency. Sorry you have trouble understanding how things work.


Oh yeah... it might help to know that this info came directly from the Director of ops. Used to talk to him in ATW on a monthly basis back then. If he had it wrong... well, then I guess I got it wrong too.

 

[DrRaptor]

The post above mine was about the Do JET at ACA !!! 2 different engines and 2 different companies. And of course the box said PWC on the side at COS... who makes the engine... ???? Surely you don't think a Pratt engine will show up in a Fairchild Box?

First -

The engines did show up in boxes originating from Fairchild originally. Heck, the boxes with the turbines for our CV-580s sitting down on the shop floor say "Jet Aero" on them even though the turbines are originally from Allison. The name on the side of the box is who last had the box. Fairchild usually saw the engines on the "power-by-the-hour" contract or the engine was shipped from Fairchild stocks. Even the Prop that was shipped up to DEN from COS one night (which I had to stay late for) came from Fairchild, and had Fairchild inspection tags all over it, even though the prop was built by Hartzell.

Oh yeah... it might help to know that this info came directly from the Director of ops. Used to talk to him in ATW on a monthly basis back then. If he had it wrong... well, then I guess I got it wrong too.

I'm not saying that either of you got it wrong. I'm just saying that I'm pretty sure that there were other factors in the mix. The DO isn't always inclined to give all the information to people working for/with him. Hell, I work directly with our DO on a daily basis. Do you think he tells me exactly why we make decisions on why we bought plane A instead of plane B or why we changed overhaul shops? Heck, even he doesn't always know because the Director of Maintenance doesn't always tell the whole story to everyone either.

The information from the outside of AWAC is that PWC picked up the "P-B-W" contracts pretty quick at comparable rates to what Fairchild had offered. So, if AWAC chose to park the 328's, it was most likely for something other than the costs of the parts and powerplant. I have a feeling that there was something in the Mechanic's Union contract or coming down the pipe from UAL that made the Do-328 something that they didn't want to fly anymore. The word that came to us (ASIG) when the 328's were parked was that UAL needed an aircraft that could carry more to the mountains during the summer, and the 328's were being weight restricted too much. I have a tendency to believe that a lot more than operating price. As much as some don't like Mesa, the DASH-8-200s that they operate are overall a more capable aircraft when it comes to hot-and-high operations.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

I know what the problems were, and while they may not have been extremely reliable, they were as reliable as the DASH-8s are now, and the parts themselves weren't as expensive as you say nor did the price suddenly skyrocket after F-D shutdown. I knew most of the 328 mechanics at DEN, and talked to them about these things, so I know what the maintenance side is.

Hell, I work directly with our DO on a daily basis. Do you think he tells me exactly why we make decisions on why we bought plane A instead of plane B or why we changed overhaul shops? Heck, even he doesn't always know because the Director of Maintenance doesn't always tell the whole story to everyone either.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a way you've contradicted yourself. In the first quote, you stated that you used to talk to 328 mechanics in DEN and you know what the maintenance side is. And in the second quote you state the even the Director of Maintenance doesn't even tell you the whole story. Based on this, how is it possible that you are a reliable source. You admit that even the director of maintenance won't even tell you what's going on and why but you still claim to have the inside scoop into the AWAC 328 maintenance issue? Please comment.

 

[DrRaptor]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a way you've contradicted yourself. In the first quote, you stated that you used to talk to 328 mechanics in DEN and you know what the maintenance side is. And in the second quote you state the even the Director of Maintenance doesn't even tell you the whole story. Based on this, how is it possible that you are a reliable source. You admit that even the director of maintenance won't even tell you what's going on and why but you still claim to have the inside scoop into the AWAC 328 maintenance issue? Please comment.

Here's what I said, expanded and explained a little better -

1) I used to work for AWAC at DEN and knew several of the mechanics, some of those acquaintences continued after I was unceremoniously shown the door not 2 days before I was to go under the Union contract after 9/11 occured. I don't hold any ill will against AWAC except for the fact that the Union Contract said that if I was let go with less than 4 months service, I would be terminated, not laid-off. That was kinda rude since due to that, I was unable to get unemployment benefits for the 4 months I was out of work, which made things a lot harder until I got my new job.

2) Between the time that Fairchild went under and when AWAC parked it's 328s, I visited one of the mechanics I knew during a trip to COS. He took me into the hangar, where I asked about what was going on with the 328s since Fairchild had folded. He said nothing had really changed and that he hadn't heard anything from his boss about anything changing in the near future either. During that trip, I noticed several crates on the aircraft having an engine changed, and all had the Fairchild name scratched out and P&WC written next to it. That struck me as a bit interesting and I mentally filed it away. 6 months or so later, AWAC made the announcement that the 328s would be retired.

3) I now work for a Part 121 company in Columbus, OH, where, as a Flight Follower, I work with our company's DO on a daily basis, and I talk to the company's Director of Maintenance on a semi-regular basis about company business. During that time, I have had occasions where the DM hadn't been told the whole story on an issue by the DO and vise-versa. Same goes for communication between the DO, DM, and our Owner. Sometimes the Owner only informs the DO and DM of the decision and chooses not to explain all the reasons or any of the reasons why. My example was simply to state that just because the DO says that's why something happened doesn't necessarily mean that it's the whole reason or even the real reason.

J32Driver says that AWAC's DO told him that it was costs, yet there's outside sources that indicate that the direct operating costs in really hadn't risen significantly unless AWAC had CHOSEN not to accept in PWC's offer to pickup of the "P-B-H" contract that Fairchild had with its customers, and that the evidence I'd seen indicated that AWAC had possibly taken the PWC offer at one point, and then conditions changed, and AWAC found it better to park the birds.

As I also said, when it happened, the information I got from the UAL Corporate-type that visited us at ASIG just after the retirement was announced was that they needed an aircraft that had better "Hot and High" capabilities than the Do-328 (which it did come up short on many occasions during the summer in Denver, where most of the planes were used). So, AWAC retired the planes in favor of more CRJs (which could operate into all the other airports that weren't up in the Rockies) and UAL got Mesa to operate their DASH-8-200 aircraft on the 4 routes that the CRJ and BAe-146 couldn't serve for either performance or load reasons. I have a lot less trouble believing the UAL Corp explanation having worked around the 328 both as a ramp rat and a fueler and knowing what kind of loads were going up to Gunnison and Hayden on the airplanes, versus what Mesa was doing the next summer with their DASH-8s, than a sudden spike in cost because Fairchild went under and PWC picked up the Jet Power-by-the-Hour contracts and not the Turbo contracts.

 

[DirkkDiggler]

It's still a lot of "I heard this," and "I saw boxes which I thought was strange," and, "at my new company communication is bad so it must have been at AWAC." Your argument hasn't convinced me to lean towards what you are saying. There's too much inference and not enough fact.

 

[DrRaptor]

It's still a lot of ..."at my new company communication is bad so it must have been at AWAC."

I'm glad you can so grossly misquote me.

The example (and its meaning) was not bad communication. It was that Management doesn't always give the WHOLE story to everyone. Just because a manager tells you something, doesn't mean that is the only or even the real reason for a decision to be made. To trust implicitly that the DO is telling a pilot the whole truth on a decision, isn't necessarily right.

As I said, the evidence I saw from UAL and AWAC and what they were telling their vendors (ASIG, Signature, the various FBOs and airport authorities at the airports the Do-328s served) was that the 328 just couldn't keep up with the demand that UAL had for the airplanes. I think that the FACT that the DASH-8's have been flying higher capacities at the same time of year with much smaller weight restrictions than the 328s is enough FACT to say that price of maintenance wasn't the only reason, if it was a reason at all, for AWAC to dispose of the 328.

Again, hearsay is what has been given by J32Driver as well. He's relaying what a DO said, which would require that you believe that Pratt & Whitney-Canada would pick up the Jet contract and not the Turbo contract. That's a BIG stretch since the same engine is on the Saab 2000 and the DASH-8Q series, so there is no logical reason to not pick up the contract for both engines.

Choose what you like, but the point is that the facts put forth by J32Driver don't add up.

 

[Beantown]

This is getting old guys. Lets move on. -Bean

 

[CRJ Driver]

Well, like I said, back when I was in Denver and after I left AWAC, UAL basically dictated what AWAC flew because they were the only people AWAC flew for. AWAC went to UAL and asked if United would use the airplanes that they wanted to buy, and UAL would say yes or no. Whether or not they garunteed the loans wasn't an issue at that point either since AWAC had it's own funding. But during 2000 and 2001, AWAC's loans were garunteed by UAL, and UAL had final say on any AWAC purchases of aircraft. AWAC took over Lone Star only because UAL said to and because UAL said they'd continue to use the Do-328.

Raptor: first you have no clue what your talking about, AWAC did NOT take over Lone Star, I used to work at Lone Star they went Ch7. AWAC bought MAX, Mountain Air Express. Here are some facts:

1. Leases ran out on the D328's
2.Stupid UAL got skywest to fly the EMB120's on the same routes, skywest mgt told UAL, we have the special mountain mod engines, no problem flying over the rocks.
3. It took a few years for UAL to figure out why the EMB could only take 18 pax
out of DRO, MTJ, GJT, HDN, GUC, and the list goes on. Yes the D328 got weight restricted, but only for driftdown, on the very hotest summer days, and we could fill evey seat and take all the bags.
4. The city of Durango sued UAL because they had a contract for a number of seats per month, skywest EMB could not even come close to what we took in the D328. UAL paid out millions in denied boardings, free tickets, hotels, meals,etc...
5.In comes mesa with the dash8.
6. Dont even get me started.

 

[J32driver]

Choose what you like, but the point is that the facts put forth by J32Driver don't add up.

Come on dude.... my story has just as much validity as yours does... probably more. Basically, your story is... I saw a name scratched out on a box, PWC must have picked up the "power buy the hour" contract. Ever stop to think that maybe... just maybe... AWAC had to buy some engines directly from Pratt at full price and THOSE were the boxes you saw. Besides... why would a box have both names on it. Why not just one.... PRATT if it came from them. Why would Fairchild box up an engine, ship it back to PRATT, and then ship it to a 3rd party? Can't think of any other way to get both names on the box.

The more you talk the less I believe anything you say. Again... sorry you got suckered by something a mech told you.

I just want to make sure I understand things.... A 4 month bag smasher who served 3 years ago is telling 5 and 7 year employees who are still doing the job how reality goes???? Maybe you should just simply listen to what we are telling you.

Ok... I'm done with this thread. Arguing on the internet is kinda like winning a race in the Special Olympics. You can win... but in the end your still retarded!!!

PS... I've heard more than my fair share of skewed info from the mechs....They are not the final authority by any means.

 

[belchfire]

dojets are pretty cool...didn't
know mesa had them??? Was
working them for untied???