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Merit

Lumpsum

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Posts
33
Voting has started at OneSky/Flexjet.

Both sides have done their best to plead their cases. Both sides have made some compelling arguments.

The side that wants you to remove the Teamsters has claimed that for over twelve years the Teamsters haven’t done much for the pilots. The Teamsters have made high-reaching claims like overwhelming support from the great & powerful International Brotherhood of Teamsters and “Industry Leading Salaries” that would exceed those of NetJets. Yet the salaries were far from Netjets’ and the overwhelming support from the great & powerful IBT couldn’t even handle one person (Kenn Ricci).

When the Flight Options “3 YEAR CONTRACT” came up for amendment in 5 YEARS (2015) the Teamsters made no serious attempts to amend it. They already were in the pockets of the Flight Options pilots. The Flops pilots weren’t going anywhere (with their wallets). The IBT was 100% focused on bagging the “Cash Cow” called Flexjet. How is Travel Management doing while all this has been going on by the way?

Face it. The Teamsters haven’t lived up to their hype. They let the pilots down at Flight Options and they are letting the pilots down at Flexjet. They need to be fired!

The side that wants to remove the Teamsters believe that a unilateral relationship with the management of OneSky would be more productive without the interference of the Teamsters. The company appears to be in an excellent position to excel to the top of the International Fractional Market and the entire workforce stands to benefit from that.

Immediately after the vote comes out with positive proof that the Teamsters are no more, I believe the entire group of pilots will reap the rewards of defeating the Teamsters! That means for the Flight Options pilots a HUGE salary increases (to AT LEAST what the Flexjet pilots are making, if not higher for all). For Flexjet pilots, a return of what was lost. Remember, Flexjet operated just fine without Teamsters.

The Teamsters spew fears of “The Boogie-Man Blacklist” that will swallow you up if you don’t choose them! The Teamsters claim “the end of unions in the entire airline industry” if you don’t choose them. You know what? The airline industry has had unions for a long time. A lot of them are good. And that’s good. They'll be just fine after this vote. Bank on it.
But some of them are not good. And they have been dealt with. Ask NetJets that.

Bad representation needs to either be fixed or removed. That goes with anything in life, “Fix it or replace it”.
That’s all that is happening here.

As for the fear mongering of being “Blacklisted”, cut the BS already! That might have worked in the 70”s & 80’s but times have changed.

Today’s market is so in need of good experienced pilot recruits that all the “Major” airlines can’t get Professional Jet-Experienced (like what you get at Flexjet)Pilots fast enough. Let a biased union pilot on any reputable airline hiring board say “NO” to any Flexjet pilot recruit. That truly is laughable. And it really shows the level of desperation that the Teamsters will stoop to in attempt to survive this vote! Hell, with all the talk the Teamster lackeys on this board have given this topic any lawyer worth anything would be all over the discrimination case! Good work boys & girls!

So this is it.
You can choose the company that wants to work with you and pay you handsomely or choose the Teamsters who will do and say anything to survive and wait until who knows how long to get something…. anything.

Vote for No Representative
 

ATFCONSUMER20

Member
Joined
Mar 30, 2018
Posts
7
Total Time
11000
There's a reason the Teamsters are on the premises already. We had life without protection from 2N and it sucked! Maybe make some changes to leadership, but to totally abandon any representation is absurd.

- - - Updated - - -

It would help to have some backing from its members as well. Expecting 10% to fight for you while there's another 10% fighting against any progress and the majority sitting silently and waiting for miracles.
 

Casa212

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2018
Posts
22
There's a reason the Teamsters are on the premises already. We had life without protection from 2N and it sucked! Maybe make some changes to leadership, but to totally abandon any representation is absurd.
Look for the IBT 1108 Truck while in Dallas
https://gem.godaddy.com/p/ad872c?fe=...2bb1abf19933ec
 

flexible

Well-known member
Joined
May 1, 2015
Posts
85
Total Time
9000
Bad representation needs to either be fixed or removed. That goes with anything in life, “Fix it or replace it”.
That’s all that is happening here.

You are a lying liar.

You never did anything to fix it and you are not trying to replace it.

In case you've forgotten in your ever changing narrative, it's well documented in video and print from national sources, Frank Woelke has admitted this is a straw man attempt to get rid of the union entirely. He has admitted he has the backing of the company and has been given unquantifiable help from inside and outside sources.

This is not about the pilots or getting better representation. This is a complete and total assault on every unionized pilot in this industry.

It's a good thing you're staying anonymous Lumpsum because no matter what happens, win or lose, every pilot associated with the decert effort will have to answer for their con job.

I will personally support, maybe even donate extra, any effort by the IBT to go after your and yours personally for damages. You have threatened my career and you don't just get to slink back into the shadows.
 

DirtyBeech

The Last Starfighter
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Posts
782
Total Time
Enough
Ahh yes. Unilateral pay increases for everybody. Huge money for everyone. Just vote out the Teamsters and how the money will flow. Don’t mind the man behind the curtain who wrote a book saying quite the opposite. The one who didn’t pay your bonus, took your accrued sick time and reduced your 401k. All without a union on property. But nooowww he’s ready to be generous.

The funny thing about the huge pay increases is that the company could have given them at any time. They could have given a decent 401k to ALL of their employees at anytime. Are you telling me that the union would have turned down a LOA from the company with raises or better retirement? Get real.

In fact the company fought any and all pay raises every step of the way in negotiations. Just like they fought everything else. So much so that the national mediation board has found that the company negotiated in bad faith. What a shock.

Did you not get a vacation this year because you were in the negative with pto? Did you know the union offered a LOA to amend that part of the contract? Who turned it down? Oh, it was that magnanimous management group again. They’d rather screw their pilots if it meant having any leverage at all to throw at the Teamsters. Leverage only available because Flex pilots have steadfastly refused to inform themselves of what’s going on.

What have the Teamsters done for Flex? I can name several illegally fired pilots who got their jobs back. I can name grievance after grievance and lawsuit after lawsuit that the Teamsters won against this management team. In fact, this management team is batting nearly .000 in those cases. Shouldn’t that be shocking? It isn’t. Do you think those suits and grievances are free? Do you think the Teamsters as a whole have made money off of this union? No, they’ve been fighting for Flex pilots in court non stop and losing money doing it.

Think the airline unions aren’t watching? Never mind that all of them have sent letters of support to the 1108 and the current decert drive makes headlines in the ALPA daily updates a few times per week. Never mind that Swapa has set up an informational picket on the matter. Think they can’t let 200 fractional pilots rot when they need thousands, and there are scores of regional captains waiting on the call? 200 pilots is a rounding error in their needs. I can tell you first hand that they’re asking in their interviews.

And what of the decert group? What happened to that in house? Oh it’s being funded with beer money? All pilot driven? Pay no attention to the union busting firm advising and likely writing lumpsum’s tripe. They’re not doing it for free. Union busting isn’t pro bono work.

Stand up for yourselves and your industry. Kenn Ricci and his management team don’t believe in paying their employees well. It’s written on paper and confirmed in practice. They are well versed in playing in the gray areas of scheduling, duty, mx and flight planning. And make no mistake, this fight is as much about stroking Kenn’s ego as it is getting rid of the union he hates. He would love nothing more than to have his name attached to the first successful decert drive in the history of the industry.

I can’t fathom hitching my wagon to that man’s very interesting business vision without having someone with resources to hold him and his collective feet to the fire.
 

EnFuego

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Posts
125
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ts-may-be-next-in-the-corporate-war-on-unions

Don't fool yourself, Lumpsum is management or one of the highly paid outsiders who are driving this decert effort. This is just their first step. And the Unions are well aware of it.

I do do agree with him on one thing though. ASK THE NETJETS PILOTS IF THEY WOULD VOTE FOR:
no representation OR IBT Airline Division! Because 95+% of them would not be caught dead without a Union! That's why they out earn us, their retirement is twice ours and their insurance is FREE!
Vote IBT Airline Division!
 

cougar12

Unite Brothers & Sisters
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Posts
136
Total Time
9000
You have crisscrossed the country and flown numerous rescue and pop-up trips while logging very long, arduous duty days. But now, you have reached the last day of your tour when you can look forward to going home to spend time with your family and friends, setting work aside for a few days. Well, maybe …

“Accordingly the Company may increase or decrease your hours and may require overtime as we deem necessary for running our business. Volunteers will normally be asked for in these situations. However, failure to work adjusted schedules or required overtime may result in corrective action up to and including termination [...] Refusal to work required overtime may result in corrective action and will be reviewed on a case by case basis.” - OneSky Employee Guide, Revision Date 11/2014, page 27 and 28.


Your current CBA contains language that ensures you have the right to go home on the last scheduled duty day of your tour. Without the benefit of this language, management has every right to tell you: “Do not plan anything for your first day home because you might not be going home as planned!” And if you refuse? According to the Employee Manual, “Refusal to work required overtime may result in corrective action and will be reviewed on a case by case basis.”

Every OneSky pilot is working for a paycheck. However, what good is it if you do not have the opportunity to spend time with your loved ones because management will have the unfettered authority to extend your tour, and you will have little option but to accept the assignment?

Is not being returned to your crew base on your last duty day good for you and your family?

VOTE: IBT AIRLINE DIVISION!
 
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shanes123

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 12, 2008
Posts
969
Total Time
6000
This will probably be my last post here for a long time if not ever.( unless someone really stupid posts something that really pisses me off) I no longer have a horse in this race and after 18 long miserable years it feels great. The outcome of this election has already been decided. The votes just haven't been counted. The pilots voting for the 1108 have made up their mind as well as the pilots against. Everyone knows how their voting.. Now its just majority wins. I just wanna say this last thing. I am not a Bible thumping union guy I believe there are companies that would never need representation. However this place is NOT it. This company is the poster child for a union.Dont listen to 2NN words, Don't listen to IBT defenses, Don't read 2NN book, or watch his videos, don't listen to the Unions promises or what they have done or failed to do. Just look at the history of 2NN and if you can say he has been generous with his employees in all his companies not just a few Flex guys he's been trying to keep happy. ask the Mechanics,Dispatchers, Cabin servers, Hell ask the damn janitor the last time they got a raise. ask the 70 guys fired for no reason, ask the people threatened over and over. and if you still feel you can live here with no job PROTECTION. then have at it. I am off to drink a few beers and Cheers to all the good pilots here and F the rest. Shanes123 over and out!!!!
 

airman2105

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Posts
56
Total Time
17000h
Mr Lumpy, why do you call it bad representation? Representation is representation full stop. Bad representation is any representation that disagrees with a bad deal being handed down to the pilots. Disagree with management and it is bad representation!!! VOTE IBT1108.
 

GooodLaaa

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 14, 2002
Posts
45
Total Time
7000+
Voting has started at OneSky/Flexjet.

Both sides have done their best to plead their cases. Both sides have made some compelling arguments.

The side that wants you to remove the Teamsters has claimed that for over twelve years the Teamsters haven’t done much for the pilots. The Teamsters have made high-reaching claims like overwhelming support from the great & powerful International Brotherhood of Teamsters and “Industry Leading Salaries” that would exceed those of NetJets. Yet the salaries were far from Netjets’ and the overwhelming support from the great & powerful IBT couldn’t even handle one person (Kenn Ricci).

When the Flight Options “3 YEAR CONTRACT” came up for amendment in 5 YEARS (2015) the Teamsters made no serious attempts to amend it. They already were in the pockets of the Flight Options pilots. The Flops pilots weren’t going anywhere (with their wallets). The IBT was 100% focused on bagging the “Cash Cow” called Flexjet. How is Travel Management doing while all this has been going on by the way?

Face it. The Teamsters haven’t lived up to their hype. They let the pilots down at Flight Options and they are letting the pilots down at Flexjet. They need to be fired!

The side that wants to remove the Teamsters believe that a unilateral relationship with the management of OneSky would be more productive without the interference of the Teamsters. The company appears to be in an excellent position to excel to the top of the International Fractional Market and the entire workforce stands to benefit from that.

Immediately after the vote comes out with positive proof that the Teamsters are no more, I believe the entire group of pilots will reap the rewards of defeating the Teamsters! That means for the Flight Options pilots a HUGE salary increases (to AT LEAST what the Flexjet pilots are making, if not higher for all). For Flexjet pilots, a return of what was lost. Remember, Flexjet operated just fine without Teamsters.

The Teamsters spew fears of “The Boogie-Man Blacklist” that will swallow you up if you don’t choose them! The Teamsters claim “the end of unions in the entire airline industry” if you don’t choose them. You know what? The airline industry has had unions for a long time. A lot of them are good. And that’s good. They'll be just fine after this vote. Bank on it.
But some of them are not good. And they have been dealt with. Ask NetJets that.

Bad representation needs to either be fixed or removed. That goes with anything in life, “Fix it or replace it”.
That’s all that is happening here.

As for the fear mongering of being “Blacklisted”, cut the BS already! That might have worked in the 70”s & 80’s but times have changed.

Today’s market is so in need of good experienced pilot recruits that all the “Major” airlines can’t get Professional Jet-Experienced (like what you get at Flexjet)Pilots fast enough. Let a biased union pilot on any reputable airline hiring board say “NO” to any Flexjet pilot recruit. That truly is laughable. And it really shows the level of desperation that the Teamsters will stoop to in attempt to survive this vote! Hell, with all the talk the Teamster lackeys on this board have given this topic any lawyer worth anything would be all over the discrimination case! Good work boys & girls!

So this is it.
You can choose the company that wants to work with you and pay you handsomely or choose the Teamsters who will do and say anything to survive and wait until who knows how long to get something…. anything.

Vote for No Representative

You are wrong, a blacklist will happen. But that pales in comparison to what will happen to those that remain at OneSky. It will be HELL on Earth! Ricci will keep crews out past the day they think they’re going home, he will not deliver on any of his promises....HE will not have to do anything without a contract in force! Vote for representation!!!!!!
 

GlorifiedCabbie

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 20, 2013
Posts
1,220
Total Time
15+
Lumpy, does your mother know you are spending too much time on the computer and not doing your homework?

"Bad representation needs to either be fixed or removed. That goes with anything in life, “Fix it or replace it”.
That’s all that is happening here.

So Lumpy, I have to ask you a question. If we had a manager that called 140 pilots a "cancer", don't you think it's time for that manager to go?
 
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Bjtdrvr

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2015
Posts
180
Total Time
10000
KR own words from his letter about Citation Air:

As some of you know, I have a law degree. Despite what you think, the study of law is not about memorizing laws nor is it about knowing how laws are implemented and enforced. The study of law is focused on understanding that most legal situations contain some “gray area” and it is about understanding how to make an argument to reinforce your “shade of gray”. What you learn is not only that there are two sides to every argument but that no outcome is ever certain. You are educated to weigh the risks of each position and to make practical decisions based on these risks. There are very few absolutes in law and most questions that you ask a lawyer will be answered with alternative answers. This is the nature of the law and this lack of certainty is why most cases are settled before ever going to trial.

It all is grey area to him. He chooses his verbiage carefully so you the hearer will interpret it the way you want things to go. In this instance he just flat out said let the Citation Air pilots sue me if they want to.
 

Lumpsum

Active member
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Posts
33
Lumpy, does your mother know you are spending too much time on the computer and not doing your homework?

"Bad representation needs to either be fixed or removed. That goes with anything in life, “Fix it or replace it”.
That’s all that is happening here.

So Lumpy, I have to ask you a question. If we had a manager that called 140 pilots a "cancer", don't you think it's time for that manager to go?

Glory, have you looked at your post total recently? Who's spending too much time on their computer? Pot vs Kettle - Which one is blacker?
 

jonjuan

Honey Ryder
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Posts
4,155
Total Time
3,000+
Ironically, it seems the company will go out of business more quickly with a decert vote. Who would go there?
 

MOMOMOJO

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Posts
92
Ironically, it seems the company will go out of business more quickly with a decert vote. Who would go there?

Explain your logic?

No. Worked here without a contract and know that scenario is not in the best interest of the average pilot. I have my apps in just in case.

It's not my post but I think most of us understand what he means.

It will be interesting to see how many of the extreme volume of PRIA requests that keep piling up lead to actual resignations. Many of them are reported to be from people who are just setting up a fall back plan. It's not that they really want to leave but they know they will either be forced out or simply can't sustain their career here with out a union. Who really wants to stay and do 14/10 days or 8/6 rotations for the rest of their life in a "like it or leave" scenario regardless of the money. Most are realize it will only take a year or two at a place like SWA or even Spirit to get back to where they are financially.

If the decert crowd wins plan on mass exodus. Interestingly, even if the union prevails this decert campaign has opened people's eyes up to the fact with this management team in place and their constant obstruction, they still might want to leave. So either way this decert campaign and it's tone coupled with their extreme obstruction over the past 3 years has been management's worst nightmare but their too stubborn to see it.

Maybe that's why these letters from Rick and posts from Lumpsum seem so desperate. They think the huge volume of PRIA means the vote is tight so their going after votes. What they refuse to realize is the PRIA requests mean they've already lost no matter what happens.

Beyond that, the company itself is at stake depending on the type of CPR they use to resuscitate it. Lumpsum claims there will be a 20% raise on June 1 if we decertify. He also claims he's not management so how can he be so sure?

But even if they raised pay high enough to attract a bevy of candidates they can't train them fast enough if there's a mass exodus.
Remember inexperienced, swiftly trained pilots pencil whipped through checkrides like in the old days of Options will also start happening. As will slacking maintenance.

One fatal accident will also kill this company mostly because it will have been so predictable.
 

Dirty Squirrel

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2014
Posts
91
Total Time
10,XXX
It's not my post but I think most of us understand what he means.

It will be interesting to see how many of the extreme volume of PRIA requests that keep piling up lead to actual resignations. Many of them are reported to be from people who are just setting up a fall back plan. It's not that they really want to leave but they know they will either be forced out or simply can't sustain their career here with out a union. Who really wants to stay and do 14/10 days or 8/6 rotations for the rest of their life in a "like it or leave" scenario regardless of the money. Most are realize it will only take a year or two at a place like SWA or even Spirit to get back to where they are financially.

If the decert crowd wins plan on mass exodus. Interestingly, even if the union prevails this decert campaign has opened people's eyes up to the fact with this management team in place and their constant obstruction, they still might want to leave. So either way this decert campaign and it's tone coupled with their extreme obstruction over the past 3 years has been management's worst nightmare but their too stubborn to see it.

Maybe that's why these letters from Rick and posts from Lumpsum seem so desperate. They think the huge volume of PRIA means the vote is tight so their going after votes. What they refuse to realize is the PRIA requests mean they've already lost no matter what happens.

Beyond that, the company itself is at stake depending on the type of CPR they use to resuscitate it. Lumpsum claims there will be a 20% raise on June 1 if we decertify. He also claims he's not management so how can he be so sure?

But even if they raised pay high enough to attract a bevy of candidates they can't train them fast enough if there's a mass exodus.
Remember inexperienced, swiftly trained pilots pencil whipped through checkrides like in the old days of Options will also start happening. As will slacking maintenance.

One fatal accident will also kill this company mostly because it will have been so predictable.

The big questions are:

1) Are the PRIA requests due to the company’s actions or the Union drama, or both? Before the acquisition, Flexjet was not hemorrhaging pilots like now.
2) What will be the reality after the vote is tallied?

Both are anyone’s guess.
 

MOMOMOJO

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 5, 2018
Posts
92
The big questions are:

1) Are the PRIA requests due to the company’s actions or the Union drama, or both? Before the acquisition, Flexjet was not hemorrhaging pilots like now.
2) What will be the reality after the vote is tallied?

Both are anyone’s guess.

I personally know many many many of them are Union leaning pilots who started job hunting the day after the decert cards were turned into the NMB. The timeline and upsurge seem to evidentiarily support it as fact.

They are investigating their options knowing working for this management team as at will employees is not a career they want to experience. I think the majority will stay if the union stays (not all) but conversely the majority will pull the trigger of the decert "wins".

You're right the company only started hemorrhaging pilots after the accquistion. Another uptick started after months,of obstruction pilots were losing hope. An even bigger upsurge coincided with the decert drive. And now with the vote we are seeing the biggest potential surge yet with the reality of the decert vote.

You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure out who pilots are upset with or have lost confidence in. Hint: it ain't the Union.

But folks like RH and Lumpsum are too stubborn to see what's staring us all in the face.
 

DirtyBeech

The Last Starfighter
Joined
Aug 30, 2004
Posts
782
Total Time
Enough
The big questions are:

1) Are the PRIA requests due to the company’s actions or the Union drama, or both? Before the acquisition, Flexjet was not hemorrhaging pilots like now.
2) What will be the reality after the vote is tallied?

Both are anyone’s guess.

Literally everyone I’ve talked to who has left did so for a combination of 2 reasons:

1. Flexjet isn’t a shadow of its former self after essentially becoming the husk surrounding the rotten Flight Options core.

2. The airlines are hiring, and compensation as well as QOL are usually matched by even the ULCC’s within the first 2-3 years of employment. That’s also a function of the first point.

No one is running from the Teamsters to another unionized shop. And they’re all unionized. In the end they all take their dues, none are perfect, all will have vocal detractors and all will disappoint in some ways. But they’re all needed in this industry. For every benevolent Bombardier management group there’s 10 Ricci/Lorenzo like organizations trying to run this profession into the ground.

Running from the IBT to ALPA/SWAPA/APA is akin to jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. The major 121 QOL and compensation are measurably better, but you’re going to be disappointed in the extreme if you think you’ll head to work every day and not hear about union actions constantly from coworkers and official communications. The days and venues to just go to work, stick your head in the sand and not even know much about your segment of the indudstry are few and far between.
 
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EnFuego

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 27, 2018
Posts
125
DirtyBeech, you nailed it! People are leaving because they are fed up with management! NOT the Union.
 
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