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Merger Integration Suggestion

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Illinois

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 24, 2005
Posts
65
Integrate by Years of Service and Track Protection

Years of Service Date-of-hire minus periods of furlough and leaves of absence. Mil leave and FMLA would probably have to be counted as active time, but strict limits should be set to minimize abuses. This suggestion would primarily protect long-time employees, but also reward junior pilots for continued service.

Track Protection Each pilot would have the option to bid a career "track" at their current carrier based on a snapshot taken at the time of the merger proposal. The track would be for seat, equipment, and base for any duration and/or combination the pilot chooses up to his/her retirement date. For example, an original ABC pilot would have seniority protection over original XYZ pilots as long as he/she remains on their original company pre-merger selected track. This would replace the need for negotiating career expectations as pilots would replace negotiators in betting on their own career direction. If the track is interrupted by base closure, equipment retirement, etc. the ABC pilot's seniority protection will hit a ceiling once reaching the point of interuption. All pilots may depart their track at any point and enter the combined carrier's systems bid(s), but must do so at their ABCXYZ year of service seniority date.

I admit Y.O.S. and Track integration is not groundbreaking. I don't expect anyone to raise a statue or write a song in my honor. Some may even view it as short-sighted or naive. This idea was conceived after watching the US Airways/America West debacle for several months, reading about the NW and DL pilot's endless (and at many times classless) arguments over who needs who more, but most recently after learning of Aloha and ATA's demise. While I prefaced this prose as a merger proposal, I believe it could also be used as a pragmatic labor blueprint for buyouts and asset sales.

The industry is, as it always has been, in a state of change. Unfortunately, it is in vogue to berate one another with clarion calls of what we expected from our careers while the industry attempts to find its footing. Well...our career expectations were summarily dismissed by bankruptcy judges, a frugal public, and managers mandated to turn profits on volatile, shoe-string budgets. The once great career has for the majority become simply a fun job floating on rough sea's.

It ain't our boat, but how can we aid in righting the ship from the helm?

We must change. We have to look at our fellow aviators as family and close friends. We need to give before we take. We need to use humility during good times and exercise restraint when wronged.

We must revive. We cannot renew our sense of professionalism by continuing to marginalize our passengers and fellow employees. It subconsiously shapes our performance, and the paying public is rightfully disgusted by our unwillingness to go the extra mile. But who's at fault?

Tilton? Steenland? Parker or some other from their swath? They are simply doing what they were brought into to do with the resources available to them. I find many of their actions and inactions deplorable and misguided, but do not blame them for my slips in performance. Why did the departure of the great aviation pioneers who shepherded us well into the jet age rob us of our sense of duty and pride?

WE LET THEM! In general, we have not been good teachers or students. We do not act like an educated labor force working in conjuction with one another. We act like a sad mix of spoiled kids with a sense of entitlement and grizzled veterans who are grabbing everything they can having been through tumultuous times. Perhaps this is too general and pointed, but what is undeniable is that we are so blinded and angry by the industry's pitfalls that we are spiralling into the dark night.

We must take the controls back. This is not a call to arms against management per se, but rather a plea to brethren to control what we can. I understand contract negotiations at individual carriers affect us all, and my fear is some may be bloodied in the near future. But these negotiations rarely occur at multiple carriers simultaneously. Seniority integration due to mergers/bankruptcies/liquidation will most likely affect us all simultaneously at some point in our careers. Many believe we are now at the precipice of such change, and it will undoubtably shape the industry for decades.

Our actions now and the manner in which we go about them will determine our fate. We must NEVER lose sight of those we carry and the professionals we work with. We are the labor leaders in our industry, and should start acting like it again. I believe amicably solving merger related problems is chief among them.

My apologies for the digression.
 
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Similar in ways to the "Fair Plan" I posted, did you see it?
 
How about just Honoring the Process the parties already agreed to? I know, dumb idea, what was I thinking? Integrity is worthless.
 
It's nice to see a fresh take on the subject. I agree that we need to temper our responses to things and think logically instead of emotionally, which is what many pilots do. Too bad the east folks could'nt see beyond DOH in their presentations to Mr Nicolau. Maybe we would have avoided all of this craziness.
 
How about the employees from the company that has been in bankruptcy twice and are lucky to not be out of a job..........agree to binding arbitration and not whine when their pre-merger career expectations of "very little" hurt their position when combining seniority lists.
 
Ahhhh I didn't read any farther than deduct furlough. Did we not more than earn that right? So I should have no more time than a new hire just because I was outsourced to job saving rjs? MLOA would count but not furlough? What about the guy who took MLOA to advert furlough? Good start needs work.
 
How about the employees from the company that has been in bankruptcy twice and are lucky to not be out of a job..........agree to binding arbitration and not whine when their pre-merger career expectations of "very little" hurt their position when combining seniority lists.

With respect, my original post was intended to view the industry from a broader sense, and it is my hope that we keep this debate above the fray. Your impassioned response is understandable, but the East's pilot group has similar strength in their convictions. To move forward, we need to find common ground ground from which to begin our long climb.

I am not employed by either company wearing US Air's colors. I simply argue that we all have a dog in this fight, and civility & progress will only be found through concession(s) amongst ourselves.

These matters have no easy solutions, and I appreciate your response.
 
Ah the hec with DOH, releative seniority or career expectations, sloted seniority and all the other idea's floated around......How about DOB? Yeah man, the oldest guy on property is #1 and the youngest guy is the plug. I LIKE it!!!
 
Ahhhh I didn't read any farther than deduct furlough. Did we not more than earn that right? So I should have no more time than a new hire just because I was outsourced to job saving rjs? MLOA would count but not furlough? What about the guy who took MLOA to advert furlough? Good start needs work.

Please read the original post further.

I have never been furloughed, but have worked with several at a previous carrier while driving RJ's. The pilot's stories are heartbreaking. I took most of them (stories) home with me, and think about them frequently.

Unfortunately, no furloughee will gain through voting or arbitration what's been lost during hard times, and our airlines will pursue the course that drives ROI. Our willingness to meet in the middle is the only hope for long-term stability within the profession. This harmony must be the bedrock principle moving forward as a profession regardless of the color or age of our uniform.

Mil leave and family medical are legally protected. I share your discomfort with those willing to abuse these provisions, but the wiggle room is only a tight rope's width.

I appreciate your response.
 
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our airlines will pursue the course that drives ROI.


This, in my opinion as of now, is where we need to begin:

Who is going to pay for this to fly. From "the right stuff".... No bucks, no Buck Rodgers...


Recycling labor and getting pilots to start over at first year pay is the American Way of Business. Most pilots don't think or realize that our system is set up with short cycles. Lucky is the pilot who can stay employed for more than five to ten years. Very lucky is the pilot who can make it to 20+ years...

So who is going to pay for YOS, Track Protection, Merged Lists or the Holy Grail- A National Seniority List?

Recall, management wants us to start over on first year pay every few years. It keeps cost down. However, you'll notice that uber management has a pOwerball payout. They've got theirs! Yikes! So where is thier motivation to pay for and provide protections to the very cost that they want to see at the lowest?

In addition, when growth returns and hiring booms. (not this last 2007-08 blip), most pilots will forget about seniority protections and support and desire will fizzle...



Here are some questions...

Why would management agree to YOS or Track Protection?

Within this protection:

Does a furloughed pilot or a pilot who's company goes Ch 11/7 have employment rights over a "junior pilot" at his company?

Pilot at ABC airlines is furloughed and comes to work at XYZ airlines above "junior pilots". First... companies will demand the right to hire who they feel is best for their culture and operation. Will a union card trump HR hiring? Would a pilot that came over to a new company be on probation?

What about the AMR/TWA buyout. Meaning... a TWA pilot who'd previously worked for AMR and was fired due to policy viloation did not come over during the buyout... Would this still apply? Is a non-hirable really hirable?

Protection means pay. Why would a company pay a pilot more than first year pay if he has only been there a month.

If a pilot had YOS/TP/NSL but didn't have PIC quals but could hold CAPT., would he be pay protected until he did?

What about no hiring.... For example, a ATA or Aloha pilot loses his job. If no one else is hiring, then what does he do? Must he wait? Shall a company be forced to accept him and furlough the junior pilots? And if so, who decides what company the furloughed ATA pilot will work for? Does a Review Board decide he shall work for Mesa when he thinks he should work for UAL/DAL/NWA/CAL.... etc.. Is the review Boards decision binding? Is the review Board fellow pilots or professional mediators?


What about perception? If pilot A at ABC airlines is senior to a pilot B at XYZ and pilot A feels that pilot B has a better career (due to management at XYZ, can pilot A demand to work at XYZ?) For example, say a pilot at UAL wants to work at FedEx. Can he move and take his seniority? Does FX have to be hiring? If this is not "workable or agreeable" what is to prevent pilot A from individual litigation? Who would he sue? ALPA? Gov't? FedEx?


Would union pilots be willing to pay for their own YOS/TP/NSL? For example, track protection is cited as forward thinking.... for lack of a better example, pilots could play "fantasy sports" with their careers and see how things play out. (basically an insurance plan)

Every pilot on the "fantasy NSL" roster would pay into a fund, that subsidizes the loses. For example, pilot A works for Eastern. Loses his job and gets on with UAL. "Fantasy NSL" tracks his NSL position on the UAL list and compensates him for the difference.

This might be better than the poster orginal thoughts on TP because on that first post TP is still dependant on uncontrollable economic realities like base closures. Fantasy NSL could also work within a company seniority list.


Getting back to YOS/TP as orginially posted/suggested. What about an out of work pilot who seeks employment at a non union carrier.

Why would the FedEx pilots be interested in this? Why would the SWA pilots be interested in this? They have consistent growth... They would basically give to a program that they would probably never use or benefit from... And how would a FedEx pliot feel if a furloughed Aloha or ATA pilot came into thier list ahead of them?

Union/non-union.... What to do about the non union guys. Will management run a SKYW program and favor the non union companies, especially, if they feel limited by YOS/TP/NSL.

Keep in mind management will most likely fight this because they feel it will not allow them to compete in the marketplace. If they feel strong enough about it they could use the ATA or Mcain/Lott to run a (covert) PR campaign (recall CESTA) to divide and conquer the pilots support for it... Many pilots are RALPs (Republican Air Line Pilots). IF they believe thier company cannot compete and thrive, thus allowing them to thrive as individuals because of a perceived "socialist" work welfare program then they will reject it....


Entry control. If pilots are able to be protected, then the supply of new pilots must be controlled. What will Perdue, UND, and ERAU have to say about that? How powerful is their lobby? What about AOPA and the GA industry?

How would new pilot entry be controlled? Who would control it? Who would determine who goes to flight school? Who will be the custodian of this YOS/TP/NSL program?


Finally... leverage. Where is it? We got pilots who'd rather use leverage to get rid of the hat. Or bypass TSA... The point is we all have our own wants and issues... the 61,000 ALPA pilots and 15,000 other union pilots and 10,000+ non union pilots are all over the map.


Your thoughts?
 
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With respect, my original post was intended to view the industry from a broader sense, and it is my hope that we keep this debate above the fray. Your impassioned response is understandable, but the East's pilot group has similar strength in their convictions. To move forward, we need to find common ground ground from which to begin our long climb.

I am not employed by either company wearing US Air's colors. I simply argue that we all have a dog in this fight, and civility & progress will only be found through concession(s) amongst ourselves.

These matters have no easy solutions, and I appreciate your response.

Hey......i applaud your thoughts on trying to have a starting point from here on out. I am also not a USAir guy but believe their situation does affect us all. I feel for the east guys and their plight. That being said, I also believe they were and are in an unfortunate situation and trying to grab at straws to the detriment of the west guys. Their situation was horrible before the merger and therefore their integration position wasn't any better. The fact that they tried to screw over the west guys with their DOH BS was ridiculous. Not at all surprised by the arbitration seniority award given the east premerger situation. It does suck for them but that's life sometimes.
 
Fair Plan... brought back by request.




Career Protection & Progression


“Cross-Bidding” System
    • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
    • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
    • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (Relative Seniority, etc.)
    • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers.
  • Methodology
    • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.)
    • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
    • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
    • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
  • Examples
    • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
    • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
    • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
    • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
    • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  • Benefits
    • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
    • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
    • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
    • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.
    -----------------------------------------
Someone sent this concept to me for our use and I think it is the best balance I've seen for base and seat protections which allow for unrestricted growth. This would reduce some, but not all, the pressure on the Merger Committees to resolve the intractable issues of seniority integration.

I can think of possible tweaks, like whether or not aircraft on order are included in each airline's allocation, or are open for future bidding with the combined system number.

I think the pilots can stand behind the right plan for the benefit of their careers, their employers and the profession.

I'm asking for your consideration of this idea. If you think it has merit, send it to your Reps on both sides. Maybe this board can be used at the grass roots level for something constructive after all.

~~~^~~~​
 
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Illinois -

I think your motivation is sound. The current merger "policy" at that big union was crafted for one of its biggest pilot groups in the 1990's. It's ripe with ambiguity and nearly guarantees a confrontation.

You idea of Track Protection is sort of like a soft fence. I more or less like it, but I think your problem will be convincing pilots who perceive their carrier to be the "acquiring" carrier (no matter where the money comes from) that the merger isn't their little cash cow and QOL savior, that just because their top management is chosen to run the merged airline, they aren't the big winners in the deal.

The benefits of working for a large carrier are not something everyone wants. Most pilots I know don't want to work for the biggest carrier out there. In that case, a merger of any kind is going to be bummer for them. Somehow, pilots need to divorce themselves from the notion that they have any control over what their CEO's do.

You can take snapshots all day long, but all they provide is a picture of where that company is in its cycle of rising and falling. CEO's and CFO's play this cycle to their advantage, and we are playing right into their hands by thinking we have anything to do with it.

Anyway, good thoughts. Good luck with it.
 
Fins,

I have agreed to disagree with you for years and years and years. This I have to agree with much better plan. (yes I read it also the last time you posted it) Here is to you and I keeping our jobs.
 
Your thoughts?
Rez,

You cogently outline the problems. The solutions are fewer in number.

I hate to repeat like a broken record, but the answer to so much of this is scope.

At Delta, thousands of pilots were furloughed, some had their airlines go bankrupt out from under them (ACA). As other ALPA members (Freedom) lose flying, their ALPA brothers cheer - this is wrong.

Delta does not have fewer pilots in Delta service, they have more. Sure there were almost 11,500 mainline pilots who now only number 7,000; but there are 5,500 more ASA pilots, Comair pilots, Chautauqua, Republic, Shuttle, Mesa, Pinnacle, Freedom and Jet Express pilots performing Delta's narrow body flying. All those should be Delta jobs.

I've sat in class and been told by the President of my airline that "longevity is a problem. We need you to move on after about five years so we can hire new pilots and pay them lower wages with less vacation time and reduced benefits."

A union exists to bring folks together. Our lack of focus on this most basic task has resulted winners and losers within our own brand. More often than not, the real loser has been the mainline pilot who has seen their narrow body domestic flying outsourced - and ultimately that makes us all losers as there are fewer "mainline" jobs for the small jet operators to move up to.

We need to remove these artificial and arbitrary barriers between "mainline" and "regional" flying. We need to get the pilots together on one list.

This would not fix all of your concerns, but it would go a long way to stabilize the careers of pilots who are constantly whipsawed, even within their own brand.

Regards,
~~~^~~~
 
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Rez,

You cogently outline the problems. The solutions are fewer in number.

I hate to repeat like a broken record, but the answer to so much of this is scope.

Agreed... where is the leverage?

At Delta, thousands of pilots were furloughed, some had their airlines go bankrupt out from under them (ACA). As other ALPA members (Freedom) lose flying, their ALPA brothers cheer - this is wrong.

Not sure if this is "wrong". Keep in mind America is about ultra competition, free market economy, only the strong survive. We act like 61,000 individual contractors.... We should, but why should a FedEx pilot care about a Delta pilot?

Delta does not have fewer pilots in Delta service, they have more. Sure there were almost 11,500 mainline pilots who now only number 7,000; but there are 5,500 more ASA pilots, Comair pilots, Chautauqua, Republic, Shuttle, Mesa, Pinnacle, Freedom and Jet Express pilots performing Delta's narrow body flying. All those should be Delta jobs.

Agreed. Where is the leverage? And not to sound like a broken record.. what did the RJDC do to this leverage? What did the DAL MEC do to this leverage?

The Mainline MEC's need to stop thinking they are the uber elite pilots and more of their jobs go regional. A bit arrogant.... don't you think?


I've sat in class and been told by the President of my airline that "longevity is a problem. We need you to move on after about five years so we can hire new pilots and pay them lower wages with less vacation time and reduced benefits."

At DAL or ASA? :)

A union exists to bring folks together. Our lack of focus on this most basic task has resulted winners and losers within our own brand. More often than not, the real loser has been the mainline pilot who has seen their narrow body domestic flying outsourced - and ultimately that makes us all losers as there are fewer "mainline" jobs for the small jet operators to move up to.

Agreed.

We need to remove these artificial and arbitrary barriers between "mainline" and "regional" flying. We need to get the pilots together on one list.

That starts within.

This would not fix all of your concerns, but it would go a long way to stabilize the careers of pilots who are constantly whipsawed, even within their own brand.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

Thus, each pilot should be looking for effectiveness and commonality with other pilots...


Career Protection & Progression



“Cross-Bidding” System
  • All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
  • The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
  • The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (Relative Seniority, etc.)
How about the second number be their ALPA number...
  • Future new-hires would have two identical numbers.
  • Methodology
    • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.)
    • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
    • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
    • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
  • Examples
    • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
    • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
    • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
    • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
    • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
  • Benefits
    • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
    • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
    • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
    • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.
    -----------------------------------------
Someone sent this concept to me for our use and I think it is the best balance I've seen for base and seat protections which allow for unrestricted growth. This would reduce some, but not all, the pressure on the Merger Committees to resolve the intractable issues of seniority integration.

I can think of possible tweaks, like whether or not aircraft on order are included in each airline's allocation, or are open for future bidding with the combined system number.

I think the pilots can stand behind the right plan for the benefit of their careers, their employers and the profession.

I'm asking for your consideration of this idea. If you think it has merit, send it to your Reps on both sides. Maybe this board can be used at the grass roots level for something constructive after all.

~~~^~~~​


Did you run this by your LEC reps? Did they agree that it had teeth?
 
Rez & TKBane:

Yes, I ran this by my Rep in person and mailed it to them.

Leverage - is up to us. I know this is an issue for the junior guys, but those who "have theirs" are much less concerned. We had the leverage to bring 2 Billion in contractual enhancements to the table. How much leverage would it take to get Delta to fly it's own jets? SkyWest gets free gas and a guaranteed profit, plus bonus money, that can add up to a 20 to 25% margin. (usually their performance keeps them down around 12%, but still, that money Delta could be making)

TK - my plan and what I fought for would have stapled ASA & Comair under you while limiting Delta's outsourcing to 7 other non ALPA airlines. You would have kept your job and I'm still beating the same drum (going on a decade now) in the hopes that I can keep my job this time around. Unity is still the right answer.

Best regards,
 
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Rez-

YOS would not cover a pilot who voluntarily jumps between carriers or one forced to do so through the cessation of service at their current airline/operator. Nor is the idea a slippery slope toward a national seniority list.

Years of service and track protection would only work during merger and buyout types of corporate transactions. Pilots flying for failed airlines such as Aloha and ATA will probably see the company's assets sold, and cannot realistically expect to take their seniority to different carrier. Terribly sad for those groups, but we all are gambling in a competitive landscape. There will be winners and losers.

Why would the airlines allow YOS and Track?

All companies place a cost and value on everthing. Mergers/buyouts are no different. I simply feel YOS integration and Track protections might bring divergent groups toward the middle, and assume managers will see the value in that. The cost? TBD.
 
Rez & TKBane:

Yes, I ran this by my Rep in person and mailed it to them.

No response as of yet?

Leverage - is up to us. I know this is an issue for the junior guys, but those who "have theirs" are much less concerned. We had the leverage to bring 2 Billion in contractual enhancements to the table. How much leverage would it take to get Delta to fly it's own jets? SkyWest gets free gas and a guaranteed profit, plus bonus money, that can add up to a 20 to 25% margin. (usually their performance keeps them down around 12%, but still, that money Delta could be making)

To convince an individual or a smaller group to give something up for the greater good... altruism, might be too idealistic in this competitive, hyerconsumption, dollar is king market place. Although I agree.

Convincing enough pilots to make such a paradigm shift would take quite a bit of leadership and time.

Problem is... everyone gets hammered.. Just not at the same time.. thus, there is no critical mass... only varying degrees of Haves and Have Nots.

TK - my plan and what I fought for would have stapled ASA & Comair under you while limiting Delta's outsourcing to 7 other non ALPA airlines. You would have kept your job and I'm still beating the same drum (going on a decade now) in the hopes that I can keep my job this time around. Unity is still the right answer.

Best regards,

Unity is the answer. However, would there be causalties of war or better said, Unintended Negative Consequences of a noble effort?
 
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Please read the original post further.

I have never been furloughed, but have worked with several at a previous carrier while driving RJ's. The pilot's stories are heartbreaking. I took most of them (stories) home with me, and think about them frequently.

Unfortunately, no furloughee will gain through voting or arbitration what's been lost during hard times, and our airlines will pursue the course that drives ROI. .

Sorry, I agree with TK here. I kept my longevity while I was on furlough... a hard fought provision of my contract that survived the concessions.... now you want to throw away my longevity because your crappy contract didn't have the same benefit? Sorry, that's not going to gain this pilots support.
 
Rez-

YOS would not cover a pilot who voluntarily jumps between carriers or one forced to do so through the cessation of service at their current airline/operator. Nor is the idea a slippery slope toward a national seniority list.

Ok... so this is a workable idea towards mergers/acquitions only... is it being considered at the ALPA DAL/NWA merger table?

Years of service and track protection would only work during merger and buyout types of corporate transactions. Pilots flying for failed airlines such as Aloha and ATA will probably see the company's assets sold, and cannot realistically expect to take their seniority to different carrier. Terribly sad for those groups, but we all are gambling in a competitive landscape. There will be winners and losers.

Agreed.. however many pilots want that win-win system. If they get laid off for good from Aloha they want to know where they can pick up at a reasonable compensation level...

Why would the airlines allow YOS and Track?

All companies place a cost and value on everthing. Mergers/buyouts are no different. I simply feel YOS integration and Track protections might bring divergent groups toward the middle, and assume managers will see the value in that. The cost? TBD.

Yes a cost and value on it... so how much are we willing to pay for it. In addition, there are those that see no value in it... Usually the senior guys, so how do we get them to pay for something they don't feel they need... especially when they want to "buy" something else... (maybe in the retirement arena?)


Good discussion... let's keep it going...
 
Sorry, I agree with TK here. I kept my longevity while I was on furlough... a hard fought provision of my contract that survived the concessions.... now you want to throw away my longevity because your crappy contract didn't have the same benefit? Sorry, that's not going to gain this pilots support.

I am not trying to dismiss your point on contractual protections currently on the books at your carrier. Its validity is beyond reproach, and living through a furlough must have been awful.

But what's your view on a pilot released from duty for extended periods to care for a family member, during pregnancy, or after the birth of a child? How about Military service? What about those taking voluntary leaves?

I ask these questions rhetorically assuming one or more of them would fall below the threshold you deem worthy of continued longevity accrual. Someone else would surely disagree with you. Are they wrong? I am not the one to decide.

The past is clear. As a labor force we have faired poorly since the mid-70's, and a change in fundementals must be considered. This starts with perspective, and a willingness to give before we take. Negotiation with peers must be devoid of emotion and pragmatic. We need to look at what is best for the combined carriers moving forward. We can no longer be blinded by our own scars and longing for better times.

Respectfully.
 
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But what's your view on a pilot released from duty for extended periods to care for a family member, during pregnancy, or after the birth of a child? How about Military service? What about those taking voluntary leaves?
.

It's whatever the contract says for that pilot at the time of that leave. If a person who does those leaves gets to continue their longevity for senority, pay purposes, retirement purposes....just like being on furlough or Mil Leave at DAL then that person should be treated as they had been at the company the entire time. If certain leaves aren't covered and longevity freezes then it freezes. Nothing about my furlough caused any sort of freeze. I accured longevity for pay. While we still had a DB plan, I accured years of service towards retirement.

It wouldn't be a give and take, it would be a flat out robbery of senority for anyone on either side of the fence to have have earned longevity taken from them.

In our current example, Delta furloughed more pilots. NWA also did their furlough in a different way allowing many more of their pilots to get furloughed later then the bulk of the Delta furloughed pilots. Jr. NWA pilots would pour in front of jr. Delta pilots because of this longevity deduction (as compared to a ratio, relative senority, whatever kind of method). I'm guessing that's your "give" in this scenario... so what's the jr. Delta guys "take".... less of a raise, no work rule changes, proable loss of seat, possible loss of base...the list goes on and on.

Don't take my response as something personal towards you. But there's no way I would ever support any SLI that deducted a minute of earned longevity from any of my peers.
 
Rez,

NW/DL?
I have no direct knowledge of the types of things NW and DL negotiators currently discuss.

Aloha?
The refugees from failed company's only salvation is an influx of money to resume operations. We must consider this possibility before seeking and accepting employment from these outfits.

What to give up?
I don't really think that there would be much to give up. Management has an armada of minions/consultants to quantify any plan, and I contend that disharmony costs significantly more than this plan. Managers don't care about seniority. They only want a qualified pilot in the seat on-time, but a happy or at least content driver has some increased value to them.
 
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FlyingSig,

Junior Delta folks?
A current Delta pilot would be protected by their track bid. No NW pilot could claim an orginal Delta seat in an original Delta base until all pre-merge pilot track bids are filled. A current DL guy/girl could successfully prognosticate a shielded path until the day of retirement. Difficult? No doubt. But NO bumps. They could go from the right seat of the MD88 to 777 captian assuming all seats and bases along their track were pre-merger Delta positions. Again, base closure, elimination of equipment, or shifting assets may regretfully cap their track. But they still could not be bumped by a pre-merger NW pilot. The seniority protections afforded them by track would be frozen once reaching the point of interruption though. If this hypothetical pilot becomes dissatisfied at any point, they simply opt out of the track and enter the next system bid based on years of service.

Your convictions?
I understand and commend them. No debate.

My plan may have imperfections, but what is certain is that the industry is on the verge of consolidation with or without our labor group's blessing and cooperation. We can decide our fate or leave it up to arbitrators and courts. Unfortunately, viewing this option through the US Airways prism leads me to believe we can no longer afford to remain meritedly hunkered down. We must find our cadence standing next to one another verses lobbing bombs from across the battlefield. Animosity between pilots donning the same uniform will undoubtedly slow the entire industry's financial recovery.

YOS/Track is my opening salvo in the passionate merger debate. My hope is that it inspires smarter men and women to work out the fine points, and find the requisite middle ground. We must do what we can to repair the broken industry as best we can so the focus can return to service quality and competing for the flying public.

Fighting among pilots and cuts by corporate titans have stiffled our latent talent, and lead to a horrible product. Costs can not be passed on to a sickened consumer who cares little about you and I. The only way we can extract contractual and financial gains is by working in a robust, strong, and profitable industry.

To do so may mean giving you something I hold dear.
 
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