Merger Integration Suggestion

[tbkane]

Fins,

I have agreed to disagree with you for years and years and years. This I have to agree with much better plan. (yes I read it also the last time you posted it) Here is to you and I keeping our jobs.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Your thoughts?

Rez,

You cogently outline the problems. The solutions are fewer in number.

I hate to repeat like a broken record, but the answer to so much of this is scope.

At Delta, thousands of pilots were furloughed, some had their airlines go bankrupt out from under them (ACA). As other ALPA members (Freedom) lose flying, their ALPA brothers cheer - this is wrong.

Delta does not have fewer pilots in Delta service, they have more. Sure there were almost 11,500 mainline pilots who now only number 7,000; but there are 5,500 more ASA pilots, Comair pilots, Chautauqua, Republic, Shuttle, Mesa, Pinnacle, Freedom and Jet Express pilots performing Delta's narrow body flying. All those should be Delta jobs.

I've sat in class and been told by the President of my airline that "longevity is a problem. We need you to move on after about five years so we can hire new pilots and pay them lower wages with less vacation time and reduced benefits."

A union exists to bring folks together. Our lack of focus on this most basic task has resulted winners and losers within our own brand. More often than not, the real loser has been the mainline pilot who has seen their narrow body domestic flying outsourced - and ultimately that makes us all losers as there are fewer "mainline" jobs for the small jet operators to move up to.

We need to remove these artificial and arbitrary barriers between "mainline" and "regional" flying. We need to get the pilots together on one list.

This would not fix all of your concerns, but it would go a long way to stabilize the careers of pilots who are constantly whipsawed, even within their own brand.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez,

You cogently outline the problems. The solutions are fewer in number.

I hate to repeat like a broken record, but the answer to so much of this is scope.

Agreed... where is the leverage?

At Delta, thousands of pilots were furloughed, some had their airlines go bankrupt out from under them (ACA). As other ALPA members (Freedom) lose flying, their ALPA brothers cheer - this is wrong.

Not sure if this is "wrong". Keep in mind America is about ultra competition, free market economy, only the strong survive. We act like 61,000 individual contractors.... We should, but why should a FedEx pilot care about a Delta pilot?

Delta does not have fewer pilots in Delta service, they have more. Sure there were almost 11,500 mainline pilots who now only number 7,000; but there are 5,500 more ASA pilots, Comair pilots, Chautauqua, Republic, Shuttle, Mesa, Pinnacle, Freedom and Jet Express pilots performing Delta's narrow body flying. All those should be Delta jobs.

Agreed. Where is the leverage? And not to sound like a broken record.. what did the RJDC do to this leverage? What did the DAL MEC do to this leverage?

The Mainline MEC's need to stop thinking they are the uber elite pilots and more of their jobs go regional. A bit arrogant.... don't you think?

I've sat in class and been told by the President of my airline that "longevity is a problem. We need you to move on after about five years so we can hire new pilots and pay them lower wages with less vacation time and reduced benefits."

At DAL or ASA?

A union exists to bring folks together. Our lack of focus on this most basic task has resulted winners and losers within our own brand. More often than not, the real loser has been the mainline pilot who has seen their narrow body domestic flying outsourced - and ultimately that makes us all losers as there are fewer "mainline" jobs for the small jet operators to move up to.

Agreed.

We need to remove these artificial and arbitrary barriers between "mainline" and "regional" flying. We need to get the pilots together on one list.

That starts within.

This would not fix all of your concerns, but it would go a long way to stabilize the careers of pilots who are constantly whipsawed, even within their own brand.

Regards,
~~~^~~~

Thus, each pilot should be looking for effectiveness and commonality with other pilots...

Career Protection & Progression​

​

“Cross-Bidding” System ​

​

• All pilots at DAL-NWA are provided with two seniority numbers.
• The first number is their current seniority number used for bidding purposes within their current airline fleet.
• The second number is an ALPA-issued “system” number used to bid vacancies at the combined carrier. Method for assigning the system number T.B.D. (Relative Seniority, etc.)

How about the second number be their ALPA number...

• Future new-hires would have two identical numbers.

• Methodology
  • The current DAL and NWA fleets are identified by ship number and/or distinct aircraft types (the only aircraft common to both companies is the 757.)
  • When bidding vacancies within their original fleet , a pilot’s original airline seniority number would take precedence.
  • “New” aircraft, in terms of either quantity or type, would be open to bids based upon the pilot’s system number.
  • In the event of furloughs, a pilot to have the option of exercising cross-bid rights, using their system number, or accepting furlough pursuant to the PWA.
• Examples
  • A senior NWA B-747 captain, SN 200, would perhaps receive the numbers 200/325 while a senior DAL 767 captain, SN 200, might have the number 200/400.
  • A new-hire, hired after the merger, would have two identical numbers, say 10,000/10,000.
  • Future 747/A330 vacancies would be first filed by the current NWA pilots.
  • 767 vacancies would be first filled by the current DAL pilots.
  • A-320 vacancies would be NWA, B-737 vacancies would be DAL.
• Benefits
  • Creates the benefits of a merged list without many of the problems associated with outright merger of diverse seniority lists.
  • Creates credible career protections and advancement opportunities for all pilots.
  • The order of precedence between the two numbers effectively creates seat and base protections.
  • Over time, the seniority lists become effectively merged as a greater percentage of pilots, hired after the merger, have identical seniority and system numbers.
  -----------------------------------------

Someone sent this concept to me for our use and I think it is the best balance I've seen for base and seat protections which allow for unrestricted growth. This would reduce some, but not all, the pressure on the Merger Committees to resolve the intractable issues of seniority integration.

I can think of possible tweaks, like whether or not aircraft on order are included in each airline's allocation, or are open for future bidding with the combined system number.

I think the pilots can stand behind the right plan for the benefit of their careers, their employers and the profession.

I'm asking for your consideration of this idea. If you think it has merit, send it to your Reps on both sides. Maybe this board can be used at the grass roots level for something constructive after all.

~~~^~~~​

Did you run this by your LEC reps? Did they agree that it had teeth?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Rez & TKBane:

Yes, I ran this by my Rep in person and mailed it to them.

Leverage - is up to us. I know this is an issue for the junior guys, but those who "have theirs" are much less concerned. We had the leverage to bring 2 Billion in contractual enhancements to the table. How much leverage would it take to get Delta to fly it's own jets? SkyWest gets free gas and a guaranteed profit, plus bonus money, that can add up to a 20 to 25% margin. (usually their performance keeps them down around 12%, but still, that money Delta could be making)

TK - my plan and what I fought for would have stapled ASA & Comair under you while limiting Delta's outsourcing to 7 other non ALPA airlines. You would have kept your job and I'm still beating the same drum (going on a decade now) in the hopes that I can keep my job this time around. Unity is still the right answer.

Best regards,

 

[Illinois]

Rez-

YOS would not cover a pilot who voluntarily jumps between carriers or one forced to do so through the cessation of service at their current airline/operator. Nor is the idea a slippery slope toward a national seniority list.

Years of service and track protection would only work during merger and buyout types of corporate transactions. Pilots flying for failed airlines such as Aloha and ATA will probably see the company's assets sold, and cannot realistically expect to take their seniority to different carrier. Terribly sad for those groups, but we all are gambling in a competitive landscape. There will be winners and losers.

Why would the airlines allow YOS and Track?

All companies place a cost and value on everthing. Mergers/buyouts are no different. I simply feel YOS integration and Track protections might bring divergent groups toward the middle, and assume managers will see the value in that. The cost? TBD.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez & TKBane:

Yes, I ran this by my Rep in person and mailed it to them.

No response as of yet?

Leverage - is up to us. I know this is an issue for the junior guys, but those who "have theirs" are much less concerned. We had the leverage to bring 2 Billion in contractual enhancements to the table. How much leverage would it take to get Delta to fly it's own jets? SkyWest gets free gas and a guaranteed profit, plus bonus money, that can add up to a 20 to 25% margin. (usually their performance keeps them down around 12%, but still, that money Delta could be making)

To convince an individual or a smaller group to give something up for the greater good... altruism, might be too idealistic in this competitive, hyerconsumption, dollar is king market place. Although I agree.

Convincing enough pilots to make such a paradigm shift would take quite a bit of leadership and time.

Problem is... everyone gets hammered.. Just not at the same time.. thus, there is no critical mass... only varying degrees of Haves and Have Nots.

TK - my plan and what I fought for would have stapled ASA & Comair under you while limiting Delta's outsourcing to 7 other non ALPA airlines. You would have kept your job and I'm still beating the same drum (going on a decade now) in the hopes that I can keep my job this time around. Unity is still the right answer.

Best regards,

Unity is the answer. However, would there be causalties of war or better said, Unintended Negative Consequences of a noble effort?

 

[FlyingSig]

Please read the original post further.

I have never been furloughed, but have worked with several at a previous carrier while driving RJ's. The pilot's stories are heartbreaking. I took most of them (stories) home with me, and think about them frequently.

Unfortunately, no furloughee will gain through voting or arbitration what's been lost during hard times, and our airlines will pursue the course that drives ROI. .

Sorry, I agree with TK here. I kept my longevity while I was on furlough... a hard fought provision of my contract that survived the concessions.... now you want to throw away my longevity because your crappy contract didn't have the same benefit? Sorry, that's not going to gain this pilots support.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez-

YOS would not cover a pilot who voluntarily jumps between carriers or one forced to do so through the cessation of service at their current airline/operator. Nor is the idea a slippery slope toward a national seniority list.

Ok... so this is a workable idea towards mergers/acquitions only... is it being considered at the ALPA DAL/NWA merger table?

Years of service and track protection would only work during merger and buyout types of corporate transactions. Pilots flying for failed airlines such as Aloha and ATA will probably see the company's assets sold, and cannot realistically expect to take their seniority to different carrier. Terribly sad for those groups, but we all are gambling in a competitive landscape. There will be winners and losers.

Agreed.. however many pilots want that win-win system. If they get laid off for good from Aloha they want to know where they can pick up at a reasonable compensation level...

Why would the airlines allow YOS and Track?

All companies place a cost and value on everthing. Mergers/buyouts are no different. I simply feel YOS integration and Track protections might bring divergent groups toward the middle, and assume managers will see the value in that. The cost? TBD.

Yes a cost and value on it... so how much are we willing to pay for it. In addition, there are those that see no value in it... Usually the senior guys, so how do we get them to pay for something they don't feel they need... especially when they want to "buy" something else... (maybe in the retirement arena?)


Good discussion... let's keep it going...

 

[Illinois]

Sorry, I agree with TK here. I kept my longevity while I was on furlough... a hard fought provision of my contract that survived the concessions.... now you want to throw away my longevity because your crappy contract didn't have the same benefit? Sorry, that's not going to gain this pilots support.

I am not trying to dismiss your point on contractual protections currently on the books at your carrier. Its validity is beyond reproach, and living through a furlough must have been awful.

But what's your view on a pilot released from duty for extended periods to care for a family member, during pregnancy, or after the birth of a child? How about Military service? What about those taking voluntary leaves?

I ask these questions rhetorically assuming one or more of them would fall below the threshold you deem worthy of continued longevity accrual. Someone else would surely disagree with you. Are they wrong? I am not the one to decide.

The past is clear. As a labor force we have faired poorly since the mid-70's, and a change in fundementals must be considered. This starts with perspective, and a willingness to give before we take. Negotiation with peers must be devoid of emotion and pragmatic. We need to look at what is best for the combined carriers moving forward. We can no longer be blinded by our own scars and longing for better times.

Respectfully.

 

[FlyingSig]

But what's your view on a pilot released from duty for extended periods to care for a family member, during pregnancy, or after the birth of a child? How about Military service? What about those taking voluntary leaves?
.

It's whatever the contract says for that pilot at the time of that leave. If a person who does those leaves gets to continue their longevity for senority, pay purposes, retirement purposes....just like being on furlough or Mil Leave at DAL then that person should be treated as they had been at the company the entire time. If certain leaves aren't covered and longevity freezes then it freezes. Nothing about my furlough caused any sort of freeze. I accured longevity for pay. While we still had a DB plan, I accured years of service towards retirement.

It wouldn't be a give and take, it would be a flat out robbery of senority for anyone on either side of the fence to have have earned longevity taken from them.

In our current example, Delta furloughed more pilots. NWA also did their furlough in a different way allowing many more of their pilots to get furloughed later then the bulk of the Delta furloughed pilots. Jr. NWA pilots would pour in front of jr. Delta pilots because of this longevity deduction (as compared to a ratio, relative senority, whatever kind of method). I'm guessing that's your "give" in this scenario... so what's the jr. Delta guys "take".... less of a raise, no work rule changes, proable loss of seat, possible loss of base...the list goes on and on.

Don't take my response as something personal towards you. But there's no way I would ever support any SLI that deducted a minute of earned longevity from any of my peers.

 

[Illinois]

Rez,

NW/DL?
I have no direct knowledge of the types of things NW and DL negotiators currently discuss.

Aloha?
The refugees from failed company's only salvation is an influx of money to resume operations. We must consider this possibility before seeking and accepting employment from these outfits.

What to give up?
I don't really think that there would be much to give up. Management has an armada of minions/consultants to quantify any plan, and I contend that disharmony costs significantly more than this plan. Managers don't care about seniority. They only want a qualified pilot in the seat on-time, but a happy or at least content driver has some increased value to them.

 

[Illinois]

FlyingSig,

Junior Delta folks?
A current Delta pilot would be protected by their track bid. No NW pilot could claim an orginal Delta seat in an original Delta base until all pre-merge pilot track bids are filled. A current DL guy/girl could successfully prognosticate a shielded path until the day of retirement. Difficult? No doubt. But NO bumps. They could go from the right seat of the MD88 to 777 captian assuming all seats and bases along their track were pre-merger Delta positions. Again, base closure, elimination of equipment, or shifting assets may regretfully cap their track. But they still could not be bumped by a pre-merger NW pilot. The seniority protections afforded them by track would be frozen once reaching the point of interruption though. If this hypothetical pilot becomes dissatisfied at any point, they simply opt out of the track and enter the next system bid based on years of service.

Your convictions?
I understand and commend them. No debate.

My plan may have imperfections, but what is certain is that the industry is on the verge of consolidation with or without our labor group's blessing and cooperation. We can decide our fate or leave it up to arbitrators and courts. Unfortunately, viewing this option through the US Airways prism leads me to believe we can no longer afford to remain meritedly hunkered down. We must find our cadence standing next to one another verses lobbing bombs from across the battlefield. Animosity between pilots donning the same uniform will undoubtedly slow the entire industry's financial recovery.

YOS/Track is my opening salvo in the passionate merger debate. My hope is that it inspires smarter men and women to work out the fine points, and find the requisite middle ground. We must do what we can to repair the broken industry as best we can so the focus can return to service quality and competing for the flying public.

Fighting among pilots and cuts by corporate titans have stiffled our latent talent, and lead to a horrible product. Costs can not be passed on to a sickened consumer who cares little about you and I. The only way we can extract contractual and financial gains is by working in a robust, strong, and profitable industry.

To do so may mean giving you something I hold dear.