MEI's...look here!

[minitour]

Any of ya ever actually SOLO a student in a twin?

I got a call from a guy with more money than brains that wants to do everything in a twin...I know I can do the "time spent performing duties of PIC" thing with him...but I was wondering if anyone out there EVER solo'd a student in a twin (Duchess...if that helps).

Thanks!

-mini

 

[CJCCapt]

Any of ya ever actually SOLO a student in a twin?

I got a call from a guy with more money than brains that wants to do everything in a twin...I know I can do the "time spent performing duties of PIC" thing with him...but I was wondering if anyone out there EVER solo'd a student in a twin (Duchess...if that helps).

Thanks!

-mini

It's legal from a FAA standpoint. However, insurance companies almost always prohibit it. Also "time spent performing duties of PIC" applies only to an airship rating (Part 61.51(d) - Logging solo flight time). You will have to solo him (without you in the airplane) to complete the requirements of part 61.109(b)(5).

 

[SpartyOn]

I knew a guy that bought a 310 without any flight time. He wanted to learn to fly in it and it didn't go so well and he ended up selling it. I used to get nervous watching people solo in a 172 nevermind a twin. On the other hand multi time is hard to come by when you're flight instructing so take as much as you can get who cares if he ever solos.

 

[cougar6903]

Its his money to burn. I'd advise him against it but if he insists and its legal to do . . . Once (if ever) he is ready to solo make sure all the t's are crossed and i's dotted on the insurance. Cross that bridge when (if) you get to it. You may go fly 10 hours with him and he'll figure out its too hard. I've know students who had a very hard time learning to fly, even with very a very good CFI. They didn't really care what it cost or how long it took them to solo. Good luck.

 

[minitour]

It's legal from a FAA standpoint. However, insurance companies almost always prohibit it. Also "time spent performing duties of PIC" applies only to an airship rating (Part 61.51(d) - Logging solo flight time). You will have to solo him (without you in the airplane) to complete the requirements of part 61.109(b)(5).

You sure?

ah...yep...there 'tis...I was seeing the Commercial requirements.

So...if he's a private pilot single engine...I can sit with him and do the "performing duties of PIC" for an initial commercial multi but not a private multi....makes perfect sense.

-mini

 

[User546]

Insurance companies aside, I wouldn't have a problem soloing a guy in the twin - especially if it was his primary trainer and had done all his training in it. Just don't expect me to solo him at 15 hours! Before I'd sign him off to solo, he'd be the fastest, spring-loaded, ready for an engine to fail, pilot on the planet. That's all I'd really worry about soloing someone in a twin. The speed and performance isn't that much more of a difference then a normal trainer.

Ultimately, YOUR the CFI, and YOU dictate when the student solos. When he's truly ready, and your satisfied, it shouldn't be an issue in your mind whether or not its a twin or single - he'll be ready!

 

[81Horse]

... I got a call from a guy with more money than brains that wants to do everything in a twin ...

Run! Run like the wind! You don't want your name in this guy's logbook.

 

[CJCCapt]

You sure?

ah...yep...there 'tis...I was seeing the Commercial requirements.

So...if he's a private pilot single engine...I can sit with him and do the "performing duties of PIC" for an initial commercial multi but not a private multi....makes perfect sense.

-mini

The reason it's in the regs for the commercial is because the FAA does knows that insurance companies make it difficult for pilots to solo in multi engine aicraft until they are rated. So to help with that, the FAA added the "performing duties" language to the commercial requirements...but not the private. The FAA really doesn't want you getting the multi rating until you have more experience. This holds throughout traditional part 61 and 141 training. For example, you can get any of the CFI certificates/ratings first - CFI or CFII or MEI. However, just try and go down to your neighborhood FSDO for an initial MEI (ie, before you do your CFI and/or CFII). It'll be one heck of a checkride! That said, I'm sure someone has done it...

 

[cougar6903]

The reason it's in the regs for the commercial is because the FAA does knows that insurance companies make it difficult for pilots to solo in multi engine aicraft until they are rated. So to help with that, the FAA added the "performing duties" language to the commercial requirements...but not the private. The FAA really doesn't want you getting the multi rating until you have more experience. This holds throughout traditional part 61 and 141 training. For example, you can get any of the CFI certificates/ratings first - CFI or CFII or MEI. However, just try and go down to your neighborhood FSDO for an initial MEI (ie, before you do your CFI and/or CFII). It'll be one heck of a checkride! That said, I'm sure someone has done it...

If you do the CFI program at ATP your initial CFI is your MEI. I've heard its no harder than any other CFI program FWIW.

 

[CJCCapt]

If you do the CFI program at ATP your initial CFI is your MEI. I've heard its no harder than any other CFI program FWIW.

As I said, there is always an exception. And I can believe it with All ATP with their multi flight training program. Do you know if the Jacksonville, FL school stills sends their CFI students to Miami to avoid FSDO 15 (Orlando)?

 

[JediNein]

Yeah, I've soloed a guy in a twin, a Skymaster.

The guy had 1500 hours. It wasn't his first solo, nor his first twin.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[BushwickBill]

Multi Solo = Bad Idea

Funny story. I just had a guy call me and he wanted to get his private. Nothing unusual so far. I brought up our clubs fine aircraft. He said he had his own. Still not out of the ordinary. "So whatchya got?" A Baron. Uh a 55 or a 58? 55. Damn dude how did you wind up with that aircraft?

He didn't tell me at first but we brought the a/c back up from so-cal and I learned a lot about his prior flight training experiences out of CNO. To make a long story short his instructor logged a bunch of Baron time didn't sign his students logbook and left for the airlines. Granted I got one side of the story but not exactly top notch advice from a CFI. I know why the CFI didn't clue his student in but I felt bad for the guy. He got ripped of by a lot of people.

I told him we would continue his training in a C-172. I could easily log 50 hours in his Baron and move on to skywest or something but hell no, I'm not a jerk. He isn't going to solo or get training in the thing because his insurance wont allow it.

No matter what the whole thing was a bad idea. It will continue to be until he sells it and with todays fuel prices he's going to loose even more on this deal. He could have bought himself a C-172 got his private and moved on from there. Now hes stuck with a gas hog he cant even log time in.

If you know someone who is thinking about going down this road discourage them from it. You may make a lifelong friend who will wind up with an VLJ. You never know.

 

[User546]

No matter what the whole thing was a bad idea. It will continue to be until he sells it and with todays fuel prices he's going to loose even more on this deal.

So are you telling me you can arrange a basement-bargain blowout deal on a used Baron??

 

[LSU Fan]

Got asked about this on my MEI ride. You don't have to solo him in a twin for an initial private multi. 61.109(b)(1-4) specifically state that those things have to be in a multi. 61.109(b)(5) which addresses the solo portion says it has to be "in an airplane." So you can solo him in a 172 after you comply with all of the presolo training in a 172. Then switch to the duchess after.

 

[LSU Fan]

Wow. Have a bad day in your cubicle? Just responding to the guys question. I didn't attack you in any way yet you feel the need to come after me. I just decided to back up my response with regs to make it easier for someone to find the applicable information. Stop hijacking threads with your DCA sucks crap. I thought we settled this when we AGREED that DCA sucks. Oh, and as far as "pretending" to understand the regs, please enlighten us with your opinion on the situation at hand so we can all stop what we're doing and teach what is correct, O God of the Skies. I'm sorry that you are a miserable person, but you have no basis in questioning my professionalism. You have never flown with me nor do you even know who I am. I am extremely professional in the way that I operate my aircraft and I choose to learn the applicable regulations for my operation so that I do not get violated or worse, hurt someone. Please do us all a favor and save the DCA stuff for the DCA thread. To everyone else, sorry for the hijack.

 

[TransMach]

Solo in a Twin

Mates,

For all you guys who believe there's only one way to do it, the way you did, here's a short story.

In 1985 I was asked to meet a guy who owned a couple of King Airs and wanted to get his Private, Airplane Multi-Engine Land class rating and Instrument-Airplane rating in a BE200. Another friend gave me the, then current, FlightSafety Pilot Training Manual for the airplane.

I spent about 3 days in the manual and gave the guy his first lesson. Over a 4 month period I got him through the Private and Instrument-Airplane (we flew nearly every day, Monday through Friday) and he passed his ride.

I ended up as a Learjet/Falcon 20 captain there. Today he flies his Falcon 10 around with less than stellar first officers.

It can be done, in fact, it's done over and over again.

Cheers,

TransMach

 

[81Horse]

... I told him we would continue his training in a C-172. I could easily log 50 hours in his Baron and move on to skywest or something but hell no, I'm not a jerk. He isn't going to solo or get training in the thing because his insurance wont allow it. ...

You'll get your 50 hours in the Baron eventually, Bushwick. Good luck with the guy -- you did the right thing for him.

But did you consider trying to talk him into upgrading to a King Air first?

 

[minitour]

It can be done, in fact, it's done over and over again.

Cheers,

TransMach

I agree that it can be done...the only thing that is different about your situation is we're talking turbine powered very capable airplane (even on one engine) when you consider things like auto feather, rudder boost, etc.

When I think of light twins, I think of aircraft that can barely putz along on one engine...where they have two because they NEED two...

I guess that's my only concern with starting a guy off day one in a Duchess...

-mini

 

[AAflyer]

I knew a guy that bought a 310 without any flight time. He wanted to learn to fly in it and it didn't go so well and he ended up selling it. I used to get nervous watching people solo in a 172 nevermind a twin. On the other hand multi time is hard to come by when you're flight instructing so take as much as you can get who cares if he ever solos.

That is a great professional attitude. You wonder why CFIs are paid so little, I guess this type of used car salesman approach is pretty common now. You have a duty to this pilot, and to yourself when you sign his logbook.

This is why I teach, the above mentality of "the time building have to get to a 20 buck an hour regional job" will hurt the people he teaches.

Disgusted,

AA

 

[BushwickBill]

You'll get your 50 hours in the Baron eventually, Bushwick. Good luck with the guy -- you did the right thing for him.

But did you consider trying to talk him into upgrading to a King Air first?

Dude I'm not stooping for a King Air. He's getting an Eclipse Jet or I'm not flying with him anymore!

Seriously he just came by the school looking for me so he could by me lunch. Terrible. I'm the first intructor to give him any respect.

 

[81Horse]

Seriously he just came by the school looking for me so he could by me lunch. Terrible. I'm the first intructor to give him any respect.

You sound like a good instructor. Enjoy the lunches.
:beer:

 

[BushwickBill]

Mates,

For all you guys who believe there's only one way to do it, the way you did, here's a short story.

In 1985 I was asked to meet a guy who owned a couple of King Airs and wanted to get his Private, Airplane Multi-Engine Land class rating and Instrument-Airplane rating in a BE200. Another friend gave me the, then current, FlightSafety Pilot Training Manual for the airplane.

I spent about 3 days in the manual and gave the guy his first lesson. Over a 4 month period I got him through the Private and Instrument-Airplane (we flew nearly every day, Monday through Friday) and he passed his ride.

I ended up as a Learjet/Falcon 20 captain there. Today he flies his Falcon 10 around with less than stellar first officers.

It can be done, in fact, it's done over and over again.

Cheers,

TransMach

Its not that I don't belive you. It's just that I can't belive the insurance company would agree to it. Cool story though. I'm not sure if you could get away with it now.

 

[Kream926]

Run! Run like the wind! You don't want your name in this guy's logbook.

i was thinking the same

 

[NW_Pilot]

Funny story. I just had a guy call me and he wanted to get his private. Nothing unusual so far. I brought up our clubs fine aircraft. He said he had his own. Still not out of the ordinary. "So whatchya got?" A Baron. Uh a 55 or a 58? 55. dang dude how did you wind up with that aircraft?

He didn't tell me at first but we brought the a/c back up from so-cal and I learned a lot about his prior flight training experiences out of CNO. To make a long story short his instructor logged a bunch of Baron time didn't sign his students logbook and left for the airlines. Granted I got one side of the story but not exactly top notch advice from a CFI. I know why the CFI didn't clue his student in but I felt bad for the guy. He got ripped of by a lot of people.

I told him we would continue his training in a C-172. I could easily log 50 hours in his Baron and move on to skywest or something but hell no, I'm not a jerk. He isn't going to solo or get training in the thing because his insurance wont allow it.

No matter what the whole thing was a bad idea. It will continue to be until he sells it and with todays fuel prices he's going to loose even more on this deal. He could have bought himself a C-172 got his private and moved on from there. Now hes stuck with a gas hog he cant even log time in.

If you know someone who is thinking about going down this road discourage them from it. You may make a lifelong friend who will wind up with an VLJ. You never know.

I will trade that guy straight across for my 1976 150M?

 

[CJCCapt]

Got asked about this on my MEI ride. You don't have to solo him in a twin for an initial private multi. 61.109(b)(1-4) specifically state that those things have to be in a multi. 61.109(b)(5) which addresses the solo portion says it has to be "in an airplane." So you can solo him in a 172 after you comply with all of the presolo training in a 172. Then switch to the duchess after.

I gotta read the regs closer! I agree, and my previous post is incorrect. No solo in a twin necessary for a initial private in a twin. Thanks!

 

[FlyinTim]

Agreed AA!!

 

[FlyinTim]

oh yea and down with DCA!..

 

[minitour]

i was thinking the same

Ya...in all respect to this guy...it's just a first impression.

I honestly haven't sat down with him to talk to him about it, but when I gave him the advice of getting a private single FIRST then adding the multi, he was pretty clear that he wanted his multi and not a single.

I guess that's where I get the "more money than brains" thing from...but if money isn't an object, I guess it doesn't matter.

I guess I'm gonna have to schedule him a discovery flight and see where we can go from there.

Thanks for the info on the solo stuff guys!

-mini