Medicals - how much should you tell?

[jsoceanlord]

i sit at my outstation for ten hours and have niothing better to do than listen to dr dean edel on the radio.

he says doctors totally diagnose most kids with manic depression,etc and then over medicate them.

that's what their medical business is about.

 

[TXCAP4228]

How much should you tell an examiner about your health? I have a student who is taking a antidepressant, has asthma and has high blood pressure. Will he be denined a third calss on these items?

Huskerfan, that could almost be the beginning of an NTSB report.

"The pilot was taking prescription medication XXX, an antidepresasant, but had not disclosed it when reapplying for his medical... The only other passenger, a flight instructor, may have been aware of the pilot's condition but never questioned the issuance of the medical certificate...."

I am neither an instructor nor a high time pilot, but I know enough to say that when I fly I need all of my mental cylinders firing.

If you are a professional - and I believe that you are - then you will have the student's best interest in mind and will not counsel him or her to misrepresent anything on the medical application. You should probably not attempt to instruct someone who may not be in a psychological position to be a good student at this particular time in their life.

 

[Birdstrike]

My AME is one of my best friends, but I don't use him as my family doc because of the conflict of interest (i.e my doc is to protect my health, the AME represents the FAA to be sure i'm safe to fly.

Great advice, JCJ. The flight surgeon/AME is NOT your friend. Never drop your guard and offer anything more than what is minimally required.

 

[bobbysamd]

[M]y personal advice for the AME visit - tell them exactly what the FAA asks for - note one word less and not one word more. more info than they ask for just confuses things. Also don't confuse the FAA medical certification exam with a physical exam done to preserve your health. My AME is one of my best friends, but I don't use him as my family doc because of the conflict of interest (i.e my doc is to protect my health, the AME represents the FAA to be sure i'm safe to fly)

Now, that's some of the best advice I've read about this subject in a long time! The advice I received and always gave about not volunteering information to a DE on a practical also holds true for the FAA physical.

The FAA AME is the FAA's industrial physician. Compare it to suffering an industrial injury and (having to) receiving care from the Workers' Comp provider. The AME is beholden to the FAA's interests, meaning that he/she is charged with keeping people whose health is unsuitable for flight out of the sky. Just like the Workers' Comp health care provider, whose bread is buttered by the W.C. insurance carrier, and who tries to get you out of the system as quickly and cheaply as possible. Never mind if you've been treated properly and/or recovered from your injury.

Thanks, Doc.

 

[JediNein]

Worker's Comp

Bobbysamd, true words....
Changing the subject, I hope EVERYONE on this board has designated a physician to their company BEFORE an industrial injury. Your state may vary. In California, the company can send you to THEIR doctor for the first thirty days after an industrial claim.

Thirty days can make the difference between a healthy return to work or never healing for some injuries. And how many of us are thirty non-income days away from financial ruin?

Thanks CJ & Bobbysamd.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[Flightjock30]

You can easily lie on the FAA medical application and the AME does not verify any of it with your primary physician, prior medical records at your doctor's office, or the Medical Information Bureau!
I do not think this is the way the FAA should go about it, taking pilots and ATCs words for everything. I think they need to follow up on this information more. The reason I say this is my former college roommate lied on the FAA security clearance form to become an air traffic controller. He went to a pshychiatrist before starting college and was diagnosed with depression, which was listed with his health insurance company. He does not take meds for the depression. He find ways of coping with it like getting enough rest and excercising religiously.
Case in point is: HE LIED TO THE FEDS ABOUT IT AND IS NOW AN AIR TRAFFIC CONTROLLER! Thats scary! I do not respect him at all for doing this, but I am not going to turn him in either. I just feel the FAA should stop taking everyones word for what they put down on the application.

 

[PsubS]

He went to a pshychiatrist before starting college and was diagnosed with depression, which was listed with his health insurance company. He does not take meds for the depression. He find ways of coping with it like getting enough rest and excercising religiously.

So what? Does a single diagnosis that

a. may not have been accurate in the first place (after all, he no longer requires meds...maybe he didn't need them in the first place. I don't place ultimate faith in our medical profession's ethics.)

b. may not be current (ditto)

require you to incur a lifetime of hassle for medical clearance?

Use a simple question as an anology: If you get stung by a bee, do you incur swelling at the site? If so, then you suffered an alergic reaction. Period. You should therefore ALWAYS say "yes" on the question that asks if you suffer from Hay Fever or Alergies.

Is that appropriate? I think not.

 

[sky37d]

What is everyone's beef with JediNein? Although I don't agree with her post either, it seems that many here have a problem with her that goes beyond this particular thread. She's been around here for quite some time and in my opinion, in the past has provided some good information - so what's with the hostility?

Is JediNein female??
How can anyone tell??
Is this a presumption?
How do we know the Gender of anyone here?

 

[apdsm]

I wish some of Captains I fly with would take some prozac...

 

[Hansel]

Metromoron(sheriff):
I guess you're saying that anyone that is on antidepressants is a moron? Just think you may get it yourself someday. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if you have it right now, as you sound like an unhappy person by belittling others. Better get it checked out!

 

[A Squared]

Uhhhh, hansel,


I think that it is obvious to everyone but you that Metrosheriff's position is not that a person is a moron for taking anidepressants, but is a moron for *flying* while taking them.

there's a world of dfference

 

[dasmith]

Here's a great example of a flight instructor with a student on psychotropic meds. Both are dead...in this example, the CFI didn't know about the medications... lucky you do.

NTSB Identification: MIA02LA153. The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number DMS.
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, August 18, 2002 in Tampa, FL
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/30/03
Aircraft: Reviere Vans RV6A, registration: N747ES
Injuries: 2 Fatal.
Witnesses watched the flight depart, and about one mile from the airport, the flight turned 180-degrees, and headed downwind back to the airport. It appeared to the witnesses that the flight would be landing; however, the airplane stayed about 25 to 50 feet above the runway, they heard power being applied, and the airplane started a steep climb. Initially, the aircraft started to go into a left turn, but then turned right, over the water. The flight was then observed going into a steep spiral descent and crashed. Examination of the airplane did not disclose evidence of mechanical malfunction. Amitriptyline, a sedating antidepressant and nortriptyline, a metabolite of amitriptyline, were detected in the blood of the pilot-in-command at levels consistent with the regular use of the medication. Paroxetine, another prescription antidepressant, was detected in the blood at almost 10 times the level expected with regular use. The pilot was noted to have a history of migraine headaches. A migraine headache may have adversely affected his ability to fly the aircraft. The possibility that the pilot was intentionally engaging in a risky or self-destructive act cannot be conclusively excluded.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

the failure of the pilot to maintain airspeed, which resulted in an inadvertent stall/spin, while maneuvering, and subsequent impact with a concrete wall. A factor in this accident was the impairment of the pilot in command due to the use of prescription drugs.

 

[TonyC]

If the kid answers the questions on the Application for Medical HONESTLY he must report the depression, asthma, and high blood pressure. If he can't answer honestly, he has no business flying.

Once he's done that, it's up to the AME and the FAA to determine his fitness to fly. There's a lot of opinion, and a lot of advice on the subject, but it really boils down to what the FAA decides based on the INDIVIDUAL circumstances.

I believe high blood pressure does not automatically disqualify. We know of pilots whose hypertension is treated, and they have First Class Medicals.

I believe asthma does not automatically disqualify. We know of pilots whose asthma is treated, and they have First Class Medicals.

I'm not so sure about depression, but it's quite likely that there are pilots whose depression is treated, and they have First Class Medicals.


Bottom line - - complete the application, and see how it goes.

 

[CFI'er]

dude I'd be very careful. Lets say worste case. Hes on the meds, lies about it. Then (not because of the meds) the engine blows apart, crashes into a lawyers convention(you can see where this is going). So his family sues cessna, the maker of his shoes, the old guy who drove the fuel truck once 5 years ago,and you. Why you? Well you KNEW he was taking meds and signed the guy off.

Lots of liability in this one. Is it worth the 20+ hours you'd get flying with him?

Just wait a minute; the burden of proof will rest on the prosecuting attorney and not the CFI. The CFI can deny he knew the student was on medication, and the case is closed. This is not a difficult case to decide.

 

[A Squared]

Just wait a minute; the burden of proof will rest on the prosecuting attorney and not the CFI. The CFI can deny he knew the student was on medication, and the case is closed. This is not a difficult case to decide.

Sorry, you've got a pretty poor understanding of what is going on. First off, it would be a civil suit, so there is no proscecuting attorney. It would be a plantiff's attorney. Now because it is a civil case and not a criminal case, a differnt standard of proof is used. It is not necessary to prove something "beyond a reasonable doubt" Instead tne standard used is the "preponderance of evidence", a much lower standard.

Now, McPickle's scenario is a bit far fetched, but never say never. If it did wind up in court, all the plaintiff's sttorney has to do is convince a jury that you probably knew.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Metromoron(sheriff):
I guess you're saying that anyone that is on antidepressants is a moron? Just think you may get it yourself someday. In fact I wouldn't be suprised if you have it right now, as you sound like an unhappy person by belittling others. Better get it checked out!

No, sir. I did not say that at all. As ASquared mentioned I said that anyone who flies while under the influence of certain chemical and mind altering psychoactive medications is a moron.

I assumed that members of the board would understand what I meant.

Perhaps "moron" is a bit pejorative. If you were offended or did not understand, you have my apology. Try to keep the emotion out of it.

The point I was trying to make is that flying under the influence of the aforementioned substances is irresponsible, potentially very dangerous, not to mention, illegal.

I would hold anyone who chose to do so in very low regard. The same goes for anyone who would advise that a person afflicted with these problems using flying as their "therapy" as someone mentioned.

I have reposted some info for you so that you are aware of where the FAA stands on the issue.

As for the rest of your post, it is comical. I guess you would call that denial, huh?



Antidepressants and psychoactive medications:

The FAA will not approve any of the medications in this category--including serotonin uptake inhibitors (Celexa, Effexor,Prozac, Paxil, and Zoloft) as well as other psychoactive medications (Lithium, Buspar, Elavil, Sinequan, Amitripityline, etc.). Pilots who undergo treatment with these medications can be cleared to return to flight duty after they have stopped taking the medication and the treatment issues have been resolved. See Depression in the VFS Medical Information Center. These medications are sometimes used for non-psychiatric conditions, but are still not approved for use in flight in this context.

The FAA generally requires the pilot to wait 60-90 days after completing treatment with the medication. You must submit records of your treatment to the FAA for the agency's approval. Formal psychological testing is often required. VFS can assist with this process.

 

[flyingwildfires]

Get some good advice

If I were you, I'd call AOPA and talk to their medical people. Explain the entire situation. You can also call a good AME (a good nurse there will know a lot, too) and ask in a generic way for some information and advice. I've learned lots from using those two sources. And, of course, you always have the FAA Aeromedical doctors themselves, in OKC. They are the experts, after all.

Your student will need all the information available, a process that you, as his CFI, should help him with. I had a student once who was dyslexic, and I thought it was over. I talked to the FSDO and they didn't even blink an eye, but rather offered to READ him his written exam (this was when you had to fly to the FSDO to take a written). He had to finish up with another CFI, as I was elsewhere, but he did get his private license. Was I surprised? Yes, to be honest. Was the FAA blocking his progress? Not at all.

It's always better to get all the solid information you can. Then take him out for some coffee and lay it all out. It's good of you to help him. Good luck to both of you.

 

[FN FAL]

I know of a guy that had his medical taken because he misplaced a GI Joe with life like hair and Kung Fu grip where the sun don't shine.

If it wasn't for truck driving school, I think this situation would have just about rectum.