MD80 Falcon Air Express PFT Lives!

[UALjan15]

$11K to train at Aeroservice for maybe a job with a scumbag Miami operator? It would be cheaper to buy a job at SWA (around $6K I think), then you would at least be working for a decent company.

If $6K could also buy you the 1000 PIC turbine that SWA requires, then maybe you would have an apples to apples comparison. If a type rating was all it took to get a job at SWA, there would be a lot more very happy people on this board!

 

[islandhoper]

By the way, FALCON is one of the worst places I have ever heard of. This is not the first time they try to pull something like this. A friend of mine who has been flying for them for a few years now has a bunch of horror stories. Pilots get no respect whatsoever. The main problem right now is that everybody is trying to get out of there all the time and this is costing them money.
Out of the privatly owned comanies Falcon air express has some of the worst business practices towards the employees.
I feel for those guys who fly for them... (and paying to do it is simply stupid)

 

[Wino]

I dunno, How bad can it be? Didn't they have a wet Tshirt contest on one of their 727s once? I would give up some pay for that kind of entertainment.


Cheers
Wino

 

[geojet707]

Go Cry Somewhere Else!!!!

My next door neighbor enrolled at our local community college to become a fire fighter. He paid for his own training and is now saving lives. Is he a sell out? My Flight Instructor paid for his own training to become a CFI, is that a sell out? Why is it that pilots have a hard time with this concept? It seems logical that if a person wants a job they enroll at a school, undergo the appropriate training and then earn a job. Where is it written that this is wrong? Where is it written that this is an entitlement?

I say that you guys are out of line and I am now embarrassed to have joined your ranks. How dare you call me a “sell out.” At what point in a pilots career does one become so negative and critical of others. Maybe this is the reason that “old bold pilots” are no longer wanted or respected. You guys give aviation a black eye.

HEY "SELL OUT", TAKE YOU CRAP AND GO CRY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE COULD CARE LESS. MOST OF US "OLD BOLD PILOTS" AS YOU SAY HAVE PAID FOR OUR JOBS WITH HARD WORK AND SWEAT NOT SOMEONES MONEY.

DO YOU SEE A DOCTOR PAYING A HOSPITAL TO WORK THERE?? HOW ABOUT A LAWYER TO WORK AT A HIGHLY RESPECTED FIRM?? A TRUE PROFESSIONAL DOES NOT SELL OUT, YOU ON THE OTHER HAND HAVE.

 

[OPECJet]

He must be the guy that turned early, then missed a turn on the departure coming out of a Southeast airport the other day. I thought I was flying around downtown Baghdad with the accent coming out of that airplane....

 

[pipejockey]

You made a wise choice airracer. Use the airline you got on with for the valuable jet time you will need to move on to a greener pasture. Some of the people that post on this message board are among the most short-sighted and stubborn among us. If you can avoid relocating for a two bit flight instructing job that will build you about 500 hours of flight-time per year if you are lucky, by all means go for it!!

Lets see... spend maybe 4 or 5 thousand on your CFI, CFII, MEI and spend 4 years instructing just to get a job flying a barbie jet, then spend another couple years there and then maybe, just maybe after 6 years you can get a job flying an MD80. Or you can go through what seems like a viable alternative path to a large jet for only 11 grand. After all that is spent on a 4 year degree and all your ratings, whats another 11 grand? For those who think this is bringing down the profession...get real!! Falcon is going to pay an amount they deem reasonable, regardless of how they fill the seat. All those 2-3000 hour flight instructers and traffic watch pilots are not going to draw any more pay for the seat than the guy going through the Aeroservice program. Look at all the 2000 plus hour flight instructers beating down the doors for a 20 buck an hour job flying a shiny new barbie jet.

This is the only industry I know of where you have these pompass as*es talking about "paying your dues"
There are many reasonable definitions of that, and it doesn't have to mean wasting year after year after arduous year flying a 172 around a little airport, which has nothing to do with being an airline pilot. All it does is allow you to say, wow, I have 2000 hours...whoopy!!! For all the good it will do you in a MD80. I for one couldn't care less how the guy next to me got the job, as I know he had to get through the same training as everyone else.

 

[pipejockey]

HEY "SELL OUT", TAKE YOU CRAP AND GO CRY SOMEWHERE ELSE WE COULD CARE LESS. MOST OF US "OLD BOLD PILOTS" AS YOU SAY HAVE PAID FOR OUR JOBS WITH HARD WORK AND SWEAT NOT SOMEONES MONEY.

DO YOU SEE A DOCTOR PAYING A HOSPITAL TO WORK THERE?? HOW ABOUT A LAWYER TO WORK AT A HIGHLY RESPECTED FIRM?? A TRUE PROFESSIONAL DOES NOT SELL OUT, YOU ON THE OTHER HAND HAVE.

Funny you should bring Doctors and Lawyers into the discussion, as I was about to do the same thing. Doctors and Lawyers pay far more for there education than any pilot does. Then a doctor interns for a length of time and has something like 24-36 hours straight on duty a lot of times. Many lawyers also intern as well. All this after paying well in excess of 100,000 dollars for their education.

And I'm sure airracer gets paid for the time he flies with his airline, so he is not paying to work there. As an airline pilot you need to be trained for each and every airline you go to. So if some lower tier airlines want to save some money in a not so lucrative industry by making the new-hire pay for his own training and giving a shot to someone who normally wouldn't have one, why not? And keep in mind, this is a shot at flying an MD80, not some T-prop or barbie jet. And we all know there were loads of people, including flight instructors and so forth, paying for their own training in the 90s just to fly a T-prop for 16 bucks an hour, a far cry from an MD80 for 40 to 50 an hour.

 

[geojet707]

Funny you should bring Doctors and Lawyers into the discussion, as I was about to do the same thing. Doctors and Lawyers pay far more for there education than any pilot does. Then a doctor interns for a length of time and has something like 24-36 hours straight on duty a lot of times. Many lawyers also intern as well. All this after paying well in excess of 100,000 dollars for their education.

And I'm sure airracer gets paid for the time he flies with his airline, so he is not paying to work there. As an airline pilot you need to be trained for each and every airline you go to. So if some lower tier airlines want to save some money in a not so lucrative industry by making the new-hire pay for his own training and giving a shot to someone who normally wouldn't have one, why not? And keep in mind, this is a shot at flying an MD80, not some T-prop or barbie jet. And we all know there were loads of people, including flight instructors and so forth, paying for their own training in the 90s just to fly a T-prop for 16 bucks an hour, a far cry from an MD80 for 40 to 50 an hour.

Doctors and Lawyers do pay much more than any of us do for their career choice, I agree with that. None of them however, "pays" any of the institutions they work at to be there. I also have yet to meet any who paid a firm or hospital because they offer better wages. And as for the "intern" time you described, they are compensated for their abilities albeit while still in education mode.

Flying a T-prop or "Barbie Jet" as you describe it gives you one invaluable thing, experience. You can't buy that at a PFT program. And if you feel safe knowing that the guy next to you has minimal doses of experience but a fat wallet, I am sure your career will be nothing short of exciting.

 

[mach zero]

The problem with alot of the non-scheds like Falcon Air is they hire Captains off the street who have lots of time in their type of jet. Any low time pilot who goes to work for one of these outfits with the intention of time building will be trapped because they will not upgrade and get PIC. Then they will sit in the right seat of that MD-80 while the BE-1900 CA gets calls from FedEx, UPS, SWA, etc. to interview. 5 to 6 thousand hours of SIC time in a B747 won't get you diddly without a grand plus of TPIC to go with it. I've seen this happen before.

 

[pipejockey]

gojet, I can see some validity in your points. I wish you could see some of mine. It is very hard to do the doctor/lawyer, airline pilot comparison because it's kinda like apples and oranges. And I didn't mean any offense to the rj drivers. I just wish the proliferation of them would stop, the jets not the drivers. And we would see anything with 70+ seats especially the EMB-195's and CRJ-900s at mainline.

mach zero, I also work where street Captains are hired. It does cause stagnation among the FOs as I am, but Im sure if one proves himself over the course of 2 or 3 years and 2000 to 3000 flight hours, an FO will be given his chance. Why fill the left seat with an unknown quantity, which is a street captain, when you can fill it internally with someone who has proven themselves in the right seat for a couple years.

 

[fam62c]

Doctors and Lawyers

I don't know that the Doctor and Lawyer comparison is valid here. Everybody pays for education and the basic qualifications they need for their profession including doctors, lawyers firefighters and pilots. The basic qualification and education allow you to qualifly for positions anywhere in the industry. The problem I have with PFT programs is that you are paying for specific training that's usually only good for one company and has little or no value to other employers. What if you pay 11K for training at Falcon Express or whatever the hell it is and the company shuts down a week after they have your money? Does the training have any value as far as getting you another job? If you spend money on college and basic ratings they are required everywhere and have value to all employers. A doctor or a laywer is paying for an education that allows them to work anywhere not at one particular hospital or law firm. This is the big problem I had with PFT in the early 90's for regionals. You would have had to pay for training that was only valid at one company. I refused to do it and spent a few months longer until I gained enough experience to get hired at a carrier that didn't send me the bill for training that was required at THEIR company.

Like it or not, you may gain personally through PFT but it will hurt you and everyone else in the long run because it sends the signal to employers that they can always find low timers willing to PFT. I like to think of it this way: PFT is bad and if nobody participated it would go away; it only survives because people are willing to do it.

As far as SWA is concerned, I don't agree with that either but at least you get to work for a good company if you get hired. As somebody pointed out, I don't think that SWA does it to save money as much as to use it as a screening tool to find out who really wants to work at SWA. Unfortunately, SWA misses out on a lot of very good potential applicants because it puts a financial roadblock in the way of employment consideration. They have great employees at SWA but they might have even better ones if they were willing to look at everyone.

 

[Corn Julio]

Hey Airracer
By the way, if you get hired? at Falcon and you wan't to jump seat....
You will have to PAY for that too!!!!!

 

[Mugs]

The problem I have with PFT programs is that you are paying for specific training that's usually only good for one company and has little or no value to other employers. QUOTE]


Just like a 737 type rating. Especially when you've got zero time in the airplane, which most that buy the type do. If it works out and you get on with SWA, the gamble pays off. If not, you are left with some worthless ink on your ticket. It is taking a chance with your wallet to take a shot at a job. No difference.

 

[mjandise]

Give this guy a break

I went through a similar program at Aeroservice and was very happy with the program. Tell me guys, when does a new low time pilot stop paying his dues? I did not think that I would be a good flight instructor and did not think that flying pipeline patrol or traffic watch would be a good option. I enrolled, became an FE for one airline and a few months later was offered a position with another airline.



The statement that the training that you take for one airline does not work for any other is crazy. I earned my FE ticket which I wanted to get anyway. I feel that I earned a job and am very happy.



I don't think that you can criticize a course like this unless you understand how it works. I spent about 7k for my FE ticket. The only other alternative was to spend 40k for a time building course. I make the right choice.



Keep going airracer, you have the right attitude, don't listen to these old sour guy