Marine vs. 4 armed robbers

[Midnight Flyer]

You can advocate the Law of the Jungle all you want, but sooner or later someone will get you, cause there is no way you are the King of the Jungle...

That's a flawed way of thinking. You're making it sound like the marine is going around using his military training to kill people, and that he had better "watch out because sooner or later someone bigger and badder is going to get him". Whatever. The guy was mugged by armed criminals. Law of the Jungle or whatever you choose to call it, the guy was justified in what he did.

Yes, if the girl happened to be a relative of mine, I would have no choice but to stand over her grave and say something to the effect of "I told you so". But that would not mean that I wouldn't grieve her death.

Now, on another note. I would be 100% in agreement with you if this was a case of some nutjob going around on some killing spree using his military skills as a weapon to kill people. Then, you would be right. Eventually somebody bigger and badder would come along and dethrone him from being king of the jungle.
But that simply isn't the case regarding what happened.

 

[LAZYB]

I never said the "kids" in this shouldn't have to face the consequneces of thier actions... alot of jail time is the right result....
BUT you would like to determine and guide the consequences, and the degree of defense that one could use to protect themselves. Never mind "unintended consequences". Kind of like a game or competition... Let's see if they come back and try to run me over or kill me. A nice measured response.

I am saying consider how to respond to this event. I not sure a bunch of high fives and Marine Corp ughh-rahhs are the right way to go... No, one shouldn't be happy that good overcomes bad. Nah, one shouldn't be pleased that right overcomes might. One should be compliant. Forgiving. Obediant.

However, if the dead girl in this case was your sister, cousin, daughter, then you'd stand over her grave and say.... serves her right.....Not pleasant, but a case of "what did you expect" and sorefully "got what she deserved".


You can advocate the Law of the Jungle <-- (you don't get it do you Rez? That's why we have laws. A primary one, the right to protect one's self,) all you want, but sooner or later someone will get you, cause there is no way you are the King of the Jungle...(And why would someone "need" to "get" me? I obey the laws. The one's I don't (driving) I'm not beligerant about or surprised when I have to pay the "price". I don't harass, provoke, or threaten others. I actually put up with a lot of ********************. Again

"When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him. " -- former President Franklin D Roosevelt

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

That's a flawed way of thinking. You're making it sound like the marine is going around using his military training to kill people, and that he had better "watch out because sooner or later someone bigger and badder is going to get him". Whatever. The guy was mugged by armed criminals. Law of the Jungle or whatever you choose to call it, the guy was justified in what he did.

Yes, if the girl happened to be a relative of mine, I would have no choice but to stand over her grave and say something to the effect of "I told you so". But that would not mean that I wouldn't grieve her death.

Now, on another note. I would be 100% in agreement with you if this was a case of some nutjob going around on some killing spree using his military skills as a weapon to kill people. Then, you would be right. Eventually somebody bigger and badder would come along and dethrone him from being king of the jungle.
But that simply isn't the case regarding what happened.

We are coming from different perspectives.

But lets make it clear: I am in agreement with the Marines actions. In fact I am all about shock and awe and over whelming force. When the time is right, I bring a gun to a knife fight. (no pun intended, the Marine had a knife and the "kids" had guns")

But that doesn't mean I don't have compassion or empathy for my enemy.

Get it?

I can still beat the crap out of someone and still have an understanding of who they are and why they did what I did. I don't have to agree with them but I can understand them...

Too many people think compassion, understanding and empathy are a weakness.

If we don't have compassion for this girl and her life and what brought her to the point of armed robbery then we can become just as bad.....

But that would not mean that I wouldn't grieve her death.

You aren't being (just a little) compassionate are you? :beer:

 

[navigator72]

he should have killed them all

I think the Marine did an amazing job. If he hadn't taken care of the situation, he probably would be dead right now. These punks knew what they were doing..... They took a chance and they lost.
Is it sad that a teenager was killed, not really.
It's all about the choices you make in life..... You need to take responsibilty for your actions.
If I was a punk and went to rob someone and they kicked my ass... I would deserve my ass kicking.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

We are coming from different perspectives.

But lets make it clear: I am in agreement with the Marines actions. In fact I am all about shock and awe and over whelming force. When the time is right, I bring a gun to a knife fight. (no pun intended, the Marine had a knife and the "kids" had guns")

But that doesn't mean I don't have compassion or empathy for my enemy.

Get it?

I can still beat the crap out of someone and still have an understanding of who they are and why they did what I did. I don't have to agree with them but I can understand them...

Too many people think compassion and empathy are a weakness.

If we don't have compassion for this girl and her life and what brought her to the point of armed robbery then we can become just as bad.....



You aren't being (just a little) compassionate are you? :beer:

Yes, I feel crummy everytime I hear that somebody has died. But it's all relative. How did you feel when it came out that Jeffrey Dahmer was beat to death in prision. In interviews, he appeared as a softspoken, gentle-like, "nice" guy, dispite his horrible crimes. But after everything came out as to what he did, then yeah, in a way I was happy he was beat to death. Served him right. I don't know if that's a healthy belief (to be happy that somebody has died), but I felt happy for the victims' families when he died, in a "justice has been served" type of way. In his case, the punishment fit the crime.

In the girl's case, did the punishment (her death) fit the crime? IMO, that depends. As I said earlier, we both weren't there, so nobody really knows the sequence of events.
For instance, lets say she asked for his wallet first without assulting him. Then the Marine whips out a knife and stabbs her. Well, I think that is a high price for her to pay, because his life was not in danger at that point.
On the other hand, if she ran up to him with a gun pointed at his head demanding money and putting his life in immediate danger, then he was 100% justified in using his deadly force. I realize we don't disagree on his use of force in this case.

I understand that some people are compassionate and feel empathy toward everybody. But look at the case of the 5 foot child molestor that got off (no pun intended). The judge and all the other liberals had compassion for him (because the little bugger might get taken advantage of in prision). How do you think the victim felt when he was molesting her? Pound for pound, she was probably as small compared to him as he would be compared to an average sized male inmate. So how is that fair that he has the sympathetic judge protecting him, but the poor girl was molested, and her molester remains free. That's adding insult to injury.

Sorry to go off on these tangents, but just wanted to use some examples to illustrate my point.

 

[BYUFlyr]

you can't always control who comes after you....

You can start by not pointing deadly weapons at them!

Outstanding job Marine!

Ooh-Rah!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

BUT you would like to determine and guide the consequences, and the degree of defense that one could use to protect themselves. Never mind "unintended consequences". Kind of like a game or competition... Let's see if they come back and try to run me over or kill me. A nice measured response.

Man, you have got to get outside of your head. There is a whole world out there of different ideas and perspectives....

Don't even try and go there...... I am starting to chuckle at your attempts to address me instead of the issue...

No, one shouldn't be happy that good overcomes bad. Nah, one shouldn't be pleased that right overcomes might. One should be compliant. Forgiving. Obediant.

How about a scenario where everyone lives? Nah... you need the kill gratification.... a luxury you get to have cause you didn't have to kill.

Man, even though it was the right thing to do I'd hate to live with the fact I took a teenage girls life.... but I am getting the vibe that you are cool with that... Would you be like the FedEx commerical where the guy tells the same story his whole life.... "So I said how about fedex/So I killed her"

There is no way that girl had a chance to get her life straight and she was whale sh_t to society. Heck, that Marine propable did everyone a favor... right?

Not pleasant, but a case of "what did you expect" and sorefully "got what she deserved".

I can see you doing your Axel Rose serpetine dance....

You can advocate the Law of the Jungle <-- (you don't get it do you Rez? That's why we have laws. A primary one, the right to protect one's self,) all you want, but sooner or later someone will get you, cause there is no way you are the King of the Jungle...(And why would someone "need" to "get" me? I obey the laws. The one's I don't (driving) I'm not beligerant about or surprised when I have to pay the "price". I don't harass, provoke, or threaten others. I actually put up with a lot of ********************. Again

You and me (we) have the luxury of living in the USA, where law and order of an industrialized nation exist. It reminds me on the clowns that drive around with the "Fear This" sticker on their cars with the bad as$ attitude. Our society provides the luxury to be that way.

When the "haves" create thier own idealistic world and shun the "have nots", the have nots get pissed. And with nothing to lose they go after the Haves.

Your quotes above are cute. LazyB obeys the laws. Well of course you do. We all do. But there are those that don't (the have nots) and they are willing to kill you. Now, you might carry, but that doesn't mean you are better....

In your mantra there is no room for plea bargains, prison education (4 year degrees), good behavior, parole, etc... There is no place for remorse or regret. Screw everyone who isn't a good boy like me....

Gen. George C. Marshal was one of the greatest leaders of the 20th Century. After he beat the snot out of the Germans he rebuilt Europe. Your mantra says leave Europe a pile of rubble. In your mantra there would be no Berlin Airlift...

Speaking of the Berlin Airlift, Curtis LeMay said if the US lost the war with Japan he expected to be tried a War Criminal for the fire bombing of Tokyo...

"When you see a rattlesnake poised to strike, you do not wait until he has struck before you crush him. " -- former President Franklin D Roosevelt

Why not walk away from it.......

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Yes, I feel crummy everytime I hear that somebody has died. But it's all relative. How did you feel when it came out that Jeffrey Dahmer was beat to death in prision. In interviews, he appeared as a softspoken, gentle-like, "nice" guy, dispite his horrible crimes. But after everything came out as to what he did, then yeah, in a way I was happy he was beat to death. Served him right. I don't know if that's a healthy belief (to be happy that somebody has died), but I felt happy for the victims' families when he died, in a "justice has been served" type of way. In his case, the punishment fit the crime.

In the girl's case, did the punishment (her death) fit the crime? IMO, that depends. As I said earlier, we both weren't there, so nobody really knows the sequence of events.
For instance, lets say she asked for his wallet first without assulting him. Then the Marine whips out a knife and stabbs her. Well, I think that is a high price for her to pay, because his life was not in danger at that point.
On the other hand, if she ran up to him with a gun pointed at his head demanding money and putting his life in immediate danger, then he was 100% justified in using his deadly force. I realize we don't disagree on his use of force in this case.

I understand that some people are compassionate and feel empathy toward everybody. But look at the case of the 5 foot child molestor that got off (no pun intended). The judge and all the other liberals had compassion for him (because the little bugger might get taken advantage of in prision). How do you think the victim felt when he was molesting her? Pound for pound, she was probably as small compared to him as he would be compared to an average sized male inmate. So how is that fair that he has the sympathetic judge protecting him, but the poor girl was molested, and her molester remains free. That's adding insult to injury.

Sorry to go off on these tangents, but just wanted to use some examples to illustrate my point.

Oh you want to talk about evil?

I thought we were just addressing rogue youth, or some drugged out bum with a knife looking for cash....

Don't spin it and make it sound like I have compassion for evil....

 

[XShipRider]

A life isnt worth a wallet, thats why you dont try to rob someone for one. You never know who your dealing with.

If these kids had learned Thou shalt not steal the girl might still be alive.
Okay, take away the religious overtones of that statement to just -
Don't steal!

But the parents will end up litigating over this, filing suit against the victim.
Having seen how our court system performs of late I'd be nervous if I was the
Marine. As I said... wasted youth over a very stupid choice. The group
think of these four is quite obviously the equivalent of an average big toe.

 

[Midnight Flyer]

Oh you want to talk about evil?

I thought we were just addressing rogue youth, or some drugged out bum with a knife looking for cash....

Don't spin it and make it sound like I have compassion for evil....

I'm not trying to spin it Rez.
but it's obvious that her and her gang was evil; maybe not to the same degree of the individuals I made reference to, but nontheless, she's a criminal. According to www.dictionary.com she fits into 1-5 below.

evil

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.
3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.
4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.
5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

IMO, a punk that has the nerve to pull a gun on you, is prepared to kill you. Just because she's a troubled teen or happens to be misunderstood or whatever is no excuse. Am I sad for her family? Yes, of course. Would it have been better for her to be restrained until the cops arrive, then arrested, then receive rehibilitation and live a healthy lifestyle? Yes, of course. However, it wasn't the victim's job to take all that into account. It probably all happened in under 10 seconds or so. All he knew was that he was about to be robbed and probably killed by 4 street punks. This thread always seems to lead back to accountability and taking responsibility for your actions. I teach my 3rd grader the same thing.

I apologize if I made it sound like you have compassion for evil. I was only trying to illustrate my point.