Management Elitism

[flywithastick]

I think that what I find offensive is their elitist mindset.

Let me throw in a couple of thoughts on your topic.

Do you agree that someone cannot be taken advantage of without their permission? Then along a similar line, can someone be looked down upon without themselves looking "up" to the manager?

You can't necessarily change what people think, but you do have a much better chance of changing how you feel about yourself.

In other words, short of allowing elitists like Hillary Clinton to take your freedoms, who cares if someone looks down on you if you're happy with yourself. If you enjoy life as a professional pilot, does it matter if "management" looks down on you?

This make any sense?

I mean that I think that some managment types act as if they are superior in knowledge and common sense to working people.

Many believe this, too. Some don't. But as long as you do what it takes to keep your job, and you enjoy what you're doing, does it matter?

...doesn't mean that you'r smarter.

maybe better spellers, though!

just because I'm not motivated by money and the acquisition of power doesn't mean that I am not motivated.

it's all relative. A lot of management types enjoy working 65 hrs/wk, skipping lunch, stabbing their buddy in the back to score a point with the boss, kissing up to the boss, moving their family all over the world chasing corporate success. That's their vision of motivation. No, by their definition of motivation, you're not. What does their def of motivation have to do with your success and happiness as a pilot?

And most importantly, just because I am motivated to protect my interests, doesn't necessarily make me your enemy. If you management types would realize that we could be partners, your life would be easier.

Actually, if they could figure out a way to eliminate flight crews and still make money, you'd be gone tomorrow. They're not your friend, your their tool. Cooperation would be better, but it takes more work than unilateral direction.

With rare exception, management has earned the opposition that they receive.

Why do you say this? They *usually* are just trying to maximize profits for the stockholders. Sometimes they do things spitefully, but usually bad decisions just come from lack of information or intelligence - not trying to *get* anyone.

As others have noted in other strings, SWA has done OK with a unionized workforce. I would propose that SWA has done OK not because of cheaper workers, although a low cost structure is an obvious advantage, but because of superior leadership from managment. Now that Herb has stepped back, it remains to be seen if his successors can maintain the positive environment.

I agree with you. I've never met an unhappy SWA employee, and I've known quite a few. It's their culture. And I really don't know how they've managed to "grow it" so well.

Bottom line, I don't have all the solutions to the problems, but I try to go in the right general direction. You figure out the solution, please let us all know.

 

[enigma]

Re: Weigh In

My reference to how the game was played means only that you have spent your years developing your skills as a pilot. Your hours have been spent learning weather and circumstances and you call on them everytime you are faced with a new situation. You are a professional.

Here is your statement. "Typhoon Look if it makes you feel better, you are absolutely right.

It could have been, should have been, might have been, but, it was not.

If you believe that stuff and those figures, great. What you do not seem to understand is how the game is really played"

If that quote was in any way related to how a pilot develops his skills, I need a lesson on reading comprehension.

regards,
8N

 

[enigma]

To Mr. FLYWITHASTICK

I don't have time to try and do a point, counterpoint. I do have time to say that you are incorrect if you assume that I feel in anyway inferior to an elite manager. If you ever attempt to join the ranks of airline pilots, you will quickly find that managements view of you affects something much more important to you than how you feel about yourself. I can feel just peachy about myself, and have a lousy life because some manager thinks that flying a "red-eye plus one" fits nicely into an otherwise early show schedule.

A quick summation, It doesn't matter how I feel about me, or me about them. How I am treated is what matters; and for some reason, managers seem to treat pilots with little respect.

8N

 

[flywithastick]

Airline pilot, brain surgeon, bag boy, waiter... the scenario really doesn't mater.

I've worked with and for a$$holes. It can get you down. Deal with it or get another job. Those are about your only two legal options. A$$holes *are* everywhere.

 

[publisher]

Enigma

Enigma,

You know I have always respected your position and the fact that you post some of the best postions on here.

The fact I was trying to make is that I spent my time learning how the game was played. I too am a professional but a manager one.

When Typhoon was throwing out stats and saying that everyone was saying that the airline should be saved, I was saying that was not the private position at all.

Bryan was out to prove how tough and in control he was, Lorenzo was headed to the door with the real assets, the other airlines were telling Washington to stay the hell out, and most people that thought they might be iterested thought this was a labor nightmare that could not be dealt with.

The basic premise of management in the first place is understanding the objective. Once understood, you need to organize, direct, motivate, and lead those needed to accomplish the objective.

Why would I as an effective manager want to piss off or otherwise make mad the very group that I depend on for success. Therefore it is not in my nature to do so. As a manager of anything, I want harmony not acrimony.

On the other hand, there is a price for my product. It is what the market will bear. I can set my profit objective and seek a reasonable return on equity, assets, etc. There are controllable cost and uncontrollable costs. All need to be in balance. Regardless of my harmony, regardless of my management skills, or my desire to take care of my people, if that balance gets way off and I can not achieve the objective, decisions are going to be made that effect people in a negative way.

Frankly, I hate that about being a manager.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

I may be wrong, but I don't think the original issue was management having to make decisions that people may not like. I think most people understand it is a competitive market and realize businesses are not there for the employees benefit only. Rather, it is the condescending attitude that some people have who are in positions of authority. That attitude coupled with greed (power and/or money), the inability to tell the truth (i.e., lie), or incompetence encourages resentment among the people who are under this authority and "leadership".
Granted, there is nothing that binds a manager to treat people with respect or is there anything that binds an employee to respect management. But I would rather "err" in doing good than doing bad. With the economic uncertainty, I can see relationships getting worse and the bad managers/leaders exhibiting even worse behavior. I hope I am wrong.
After re-thinking one of my earlier posts, I probably overstated (at least in my company) the preponderance of bad managers.
In a sad and warped way, however, I think I have learned more from the corrupt managers than the good managers. The corrupt ones are good teachers on how not to lead and manage.

 

[enigma]

Re: Enigma

Enigma,

You know I have always respected your position and the fact that you post some of the best postions on here.

The fact I was trying to make is that I spent my time learning how the game was played. I too am a professional but a manager one.

.........................

The basic premise of management in the first place is understanding the objective. Once understood, you need to organize, direct, motivate, and lead those needed to accomplish the objective.

Why would I as an effective manager want to piss off or otherwise make mad the very group that I depend on for success. Therefore it is not in my nature to do so. As a manager of anything, I want harmony not acrimony.

On the other hand, there is a price for my product. It is what the market will bear. I can set my profit objective and seek a reasonable return on equity, assets, etc. There are controllable cost and uncontrollable costs. All need to be in balance. Regardless of my harmony, regardless of my management skills, or my desire to take care of my people, if that balance gets way off and I can not achieve the objective, decisions are going to be made that effect people in a negative way.

Publisher, I don't debate with argue-ers, nor idiots. The fact that I seem to debate with you is indicitive of two things. First, I want to understand how you can say some of the things that you write, and number two, I don't consider you an argue-er nor certainly not an idiot. Maybe I see you as a worthy adversary. Maybe I want to resolve why I have the same core ideas as yourself, yet we seem to have an opposite attitude toward pilots.

With that said, the reason that I started a new thread was to avoid mixing the debate up on the EAL string. I don't disagree at all with your above quote. I understand why a good manager makes the decisions he makes, but this string is about the attitude I see from managers. I truly believe that there is a level of disdain towards those of us who choose to work for a wage. I don't understand it, especially in this business.

About the specifics were dealing with now, I have tried to not misquote you, nor misrepresent your position. The context of your statement about knowing how the game was played seemed obvious, but since you have explained it, I'll let it go. You notwithstanding, I still think that most managers tend to look down on people who choose to work by the piece.

regards,
8N

 

[publisher]

ok

If there is a reason that I have had some success, I think, is that as a teacher, manager, or friend that I knew the difference between ahving your arm on someone and around someone. Be it a customer or employee, I walked over and looked at it from where they stood.

The same held true for what I required from other people who worked for me. While I think that the nature of aviation presents perhaps more ego factor than others, nevertheless, I have not had many cases where I heard anything from the people who I have worked with that smacked of eliteism. Other than kidding pilots at job fairs that we only allowed 3 captains in a booth due to excess magnetic forces being disturbed in the universe, I really like to believe the best in people.

Keep the Spirit going Enigma. Tell Penny I am still looking for that goody bag.

 

[DoinTime]

Sometimes the point that business do not exist to employ gets lost and people think they are there to employ people.

Whether big business likes it or not they are in the business of employing people. Without employment there is no trade. Without trade there is no buisness.

 

[publisher]

Dointime

It is not a matter of whether you want to or did not want to employ.

The purpose of business is to profit and trade.

The means to do that may be a hard asset, a product, a service, etc.... and employees may be needed to complete or produce the same.

If a labor agreement forces you to employ people that are not necessary---for whatever reason--- that subverts the basic premise and leads to a olack of productivity. In the world of railroads, the term feather bedding was used to describe such an occurance.

This is an example where a business is forced to employ and not it's original purpose.