Major Airlines NOT Using PBS?

[igneousy2]

As far as I can tell from speaking with friends at other airlines. If you are in the top 1/3 of your position list you will absolutely love PBS. If you are in the 2nd 3rd you will probably think it's an improvement. If you are in the bottom 3rd you probably hate it because your life is miserable because of it. The big downside I see with PBS for the junior guys is that you will fly only the crap pairings every month...day in and day out. At least with pre-built lines their is a CHANCE that nice trips end up on junior lines...Hey I only got 11 days off but at least I was able to snag that sweet Hawaii trip mid-month. But with PBS those days are over. Your airline got premium equipment? Forget about seeing it. I've heard that at Continental it has effectively made the 757 and the 767 different equipment bids.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

On PBS I have had more weekends off than I ever had under the other system. I average 11 of 12 in a three month period. Now granted, that is a lot different in the domestic system. My point is that almost no one wants a pure line. Many need a Wed off here, or a Monday morning for a doctor's appt. Under the old system you needed to burn the whole month or pray for a swap. Under PBS you can request it, and unless you are very junior in category you will more than likely get it.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

ACL,

It's really a waste of time to argue with the anti-PBS crowd - they know how it is "cause all their buds hate it" or whatever and nothing here will change their minds. I used PBS too previously and your comments are 100% accurate. But the naysayers all know how bad it is with all their PBS experience.

Almost as funny as the "autothrottles/VNAV will degrade our stick and rudder skills, cause we're more in touch with our airplanes" old skoolers.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

There is a legitimate concern with PBS. It is efficient and costs jobs. Those left are more efficient. That is a known on both sides of the issues. My point is, do it now when you can get something for it, or have it shoved down your throat in the next round of 1113C. Sooner or later every airline will have it. Fight it as long as you can, but realize that waiting to a Ch11 filing will limit the protections and gain you will get.

That said, there are some really good points to pbs. If you have the correct trip construction parameters even the junior trips are not all that bad. Of course there are always going to be some five leg to a reduced rest trips. Junior folks get them either way. That is what seniority is for.

 

[AA717driver]

ACL,

It's really a waste of time to argue with the anti-PBS crowd - they know how it is "cause all their buds hate it" or whatever and nothing here will change their minds. I used PBS too previously and your comments are 100% accurate. But the naysayers all know how bad it is with all their PBS experience.

Almost as funny as the "autothrottles/VNAV will degrade our stick and rudder skills, cause we're more in touch with our airplanes" old skoolers.

Well, considering I have experience with BOTH of the topics of your smarmy comments, you're wrong.

I experienced the best iteration of PBS and pre-built schedules and it was a wash for my QOL. I was both junior and senior during that time. PBS gave more options for having different days off but paper bidding didn't f#@k me over because some obscure setting generated a bazillion points awarding me 36 hour Scranton layovers 10 times that month.

I also went from a full FMS A/T and VNAV aircraft to a DC-9 ( a REAL DC-9 not an -80 that people call a "DC-9" ) and it was a difficult transition. The magenta line and green arc are seductive.

But maybe I'm just not the aviator you are...

TC

 

[Chest Rockwell]

OK let me clarify, 1 weeks vacation I work 3 to 4 days for the month 2 weeks vacation in one month I don't work at all and get paid for the full month. Can you do that with PBS? NO.

The 10% number is very accurate. Gary Kelly would be very proud of you

Actually you are incorrect. SWA could have PBS with the same vacation overlap rules that are currently in place.

You also fail to mention that to drop multiple trips you have to bid weekend flying.

 

[Benjamin Dover]

Well, considering I have experience with BOTH of the topics of your smarmy comments, you're wrong.

I experienced the best iteration of PBS and pre-built schedules and it was a wash for my QOL. I was both junior and senior during that time. PBS gave more options for having different days off but paper bidding didn't f#@k me over because some obscure setting generated a bazillion points awarding me 36 hour Scranton layovers 10 times that month.

I also went from a full FMS A/T and VNAV aircraft to a DC-9 ( a REAL DC-9 not an -80 that people call a "DC-9" ) and it was a difficult transition. The magenta line and green arc are seductive.

But maybe I'm just not the aviator you are...

TC

Since I'm not a smart man (nor ace of the base aviator either - but thanks for the props) I'm not really sure what "smarmy" means, but I'm guessing it's not a compliment

Two simple PBS concepts for you:

- I know the "all PBS sux" guys claim bs, but not all PBS created equal. Varies considerably at each company.

- Garbage in, garbage out. If you wound up with ten crappy layovers, then you probably f$#ked up your bid. Or maybe you couldn't download, sort and bid specific trips with your program?? My experience was guys were geranerally happy as long as they put in realistic constraints. Guys that hated it were often dumbasses with their PBS "wish list". One of my buds was bottom 25% and was always pissed at his crappy line he got. He showed his PBS constraints one day - all mid-week, good paying trips. Didn't bid any weekend trips. So, he got weekend lines with crappy trips. He never quite got it that if he was going to fly weekends anyway, might as well have some choice in trips, rather just leave it up to program's logic in putting trips on his line. Other guys junior to him probably had better lines as a result.

And "smarmy" topic #2, I have 2500 hrs in "real" DC-9s and I also have gone back and forth between glass/full up automation and steam gauges in my career. One or the other type of cockpit does not make one or the other pilot a better "stick" was my point - smarmy as it may seem I guess. But, there were plenty of "just say no" to automation guys at SWA when I got there but they had never used it. Just like PBS.

 

[slaquer5]

Actually you are incorrect. SWA could have PBS with the same vacation overlap rules that are currently in place.

You also fail to mention that to drop multiple trips you have to bid weekend flying.

true, now take off your pilot cap and put on your CFO hat. You get paid 26.25 for vacation. That is all you deserve. There is no way The company is going to bring in PBS and let you work it as so you can get 55 trips for one week vacation. In the eyes of the CFO anything over 26.25 is over what the contract says you should be paid. I do like the way you think I just know that they are thinking on the other side of the fence.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

true, now take off your pilot cap and put on your CFO hat. You get paid 26.25 for vacation. That is all you deserve. There is no way The company is going to bring in PBS and let you work it as so you can get 55 trips for one week vacation. In the eyes of the CFO anything over 26.25 is over what the contract says you should be paid. I do like the way you think I just know that they are thinking on the other side of the fence.

Herein lies the problem with the PBS discussion at SWA. Your statement is mostly emotion driven with little or no facts to support it. Your statement regarding the CFOs position may be correct, but maybe not. Saying that management will never do something without the conversation taking place is simply irresponsible. Perhaps thta would have happened elswhere/everywhere, but not here. If we had typical airline management, 200-300 of us would be on the street right now.

SWAPA has let emotion drive the conversation rather than fact and used this issue to easily stand up to/against a management desire. I don't think that PBS would achieve the cost benefit management desired with current vacation rules. I do not know the relationship between month-to-month overlap and vacation overlap potential. If SWAPA could get that vacation week to pay in the range of 35-40 trips, I think that we are in the range of a win-win. Problem is, no one even tried.

Our current vacation rules were developed when we had a 3-5 cent per ASM cost adantage over our competittion. That advantage is history and so is the growth that we enjoyed with that advantage. PBS may enable us to gain some of that efficiency or simply hold our own against competitors that are using it.

 

[slaquer5]

Herein lies the problem with the PBS discussion at SWA. Your statement is mostly emotion driven with little or no facts to support it. Your statement regarding the CFOs position may be correct, but maybe not. Saying that management will never do something without the conversation taking place is simply irresponsible. Perhaps thta would have happened elswhere/everywhere, but not here. If we had typical airline management, 200-300 of us would be on the street right now.

SWAPA has let emotion drive the conversation rather than fact and used this issue to easily stand up to/against a management desire. I don't think that PBS would achieve the cost benefit management desired with current vacation rules. I do not know the relationship between month-to-month overlap and vacation overlap potential. If SWAPA could get that vacation week to pay in the range of 35-40 trips, I think that we are in the range of a win-win. Problem is, no one even tried.

Our current vacation rules were developed when we had a 3-5 cent per ASM cost adantage over our competittion. That advantage is history and so is the growth that we enjoyed with that advantage. PBS may enable us to gain some of that efficiency or simply hold our own against competitors that are using it.

Now thats funny stuff. Yes SWAPA did try and bino (sp) said that w/ what SWA wants it would not be a good deal for us. I agree PBS would make us more efficient . It basically comes out to a 10 % concession. If you think upgrades are slow now just vote in PBS and see how long it will take..

Also agreed that if we could get 35-40 trips for one week it would be a win for most pilots. We will not get 35-40 trips for one week, that is almost double of what we get now 26.25 for one week.

I think your the one going on emotion , why dont you call swapa or better yet Bino and ask him what transpired w/ PBS. I already know talking to him first had.