Major Airline Captains, would you recommend career to your son/daughter?

[SpauldingSmails]

...most other professions start out at $110-$150,000/ yr.

What planet are you on? Is it a long commute for you?

 

[pilotyip]

The crawl is long and hard and most other professions start out at $110-$150,000/ yr.

Average college grad starts at around $30K, Law School Grads are serving college at Starbucks, and Doctors trying to start their practice are drilling in the reserves to make ends meet. Tells about these 6 figure profession jobs that start in that range.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

I love flying airplanes and hope to share that love with my son someday - as a hobby. As a profession, flying exacts too great a price in terms of time away from home and family. When this is added to the stresses a family must endure du to relocations, furloughs, and perennial concerns regarding checkrides and medicals I believe that the risk outweighs the reward.

The post 9/11 generation of pilots has seen some stagnation, but nothing more. The pre 9/11 generation of pilots endured far more when viewed through the lens of how destructive we are to our own careers : RJs, scope, loss of retirement, decade long furloughs, pilot unions they defend only the senior...

Time is our enemy. I took my first major airline job at 25. Five jobs later I am 41. Where has the time gone? And what do I have to show from those lost years?

I hope my son chooses another path.

 

[whymeworry?]

What planet are you on? Is it a long commute for you?

Average college grad starts at around $30K, Law School Grads are serving college at Starbucks, and Doctors trying to start their practice are drilling in the reserves to make ends meet. Tells about these 6 figure profession jobs that start in that range.

Nobody pays dues like an airline pilot. It is what it is. I know plenty of kids w/o degrees who are pulling in $200K/ yr working the off-shore oil fields. Met a guy the other day who left being a P.T. to become a pilot. He told me at 22 yrs of age he was making $100,000/ yr. That was 15 yrs ago. Even when I left aviation for a time due to no jobs in the early 90s, I was pulling in $100K/ yr in the financial services world... that was over 20 years ago. One of the guys I surf with just graduated from a maritime academy. He told me his starting salary will be around $130K as a first mate on a commerical tug in the oil and gas business. When I told him and a group of his buddies, who also recently graduated, what airline pilots start out at, they were pretty amazed but also indifferent. "That's why I got into this business and not that one" were their responses. Of course, I didn't tell them what I make now. Nor how much time off I get.

Sure there are professions that pay $30-$45K starting. But for the ambitious type, like those that are in this business, there are professions that pay 6 figures starting quite easily. I'm am surprised y'all don't know this.

The point behind my post remains the same, there is a bit of luck involved to landing that major airline gig and as such one should have a fallback plan if things don't go the way they anticipated.

 

[pilotyip]

The point behind my post remains the same, there is a bit of luck involved to landing that major airline gig and as such one should have a fallback plan if things don't go the way they anticipated.

Actually we agree on this. All the preparation in the world does not guarantee you are making the right choices. Shows you just never know about that job. It has been said that is will take you 10 years to determine if you made the right move. There is tremendous amount of luck in picking any job.

I look at my highly qualified squadron mates and the moves they made. Like leaving FedEx for Braniff I in 1978 , it folded in 1982. We had another guy bail from GM Corp in 1979 for Braniff; he would have been at GM through the glory years. How about all the guys who bailed from SWA, UPS and FedEx for the major jobs at DAL, AAL, UAL etc in 2000. You just never know.

I reported aboard CVAN-65 USS Enterprise in 1975. At that time civilian flying jobs a scarce. I meet this guy who is getting out, going to work for company doing overnight mail, paid $400/mo for a F/O's job, he had to use his GI bill for training in the right seat of the DA-20. The company must have had a gov't contract I thought with a name like Federal Express. He stayed at FedEx, ran across him at a CO's conference in the late 80's he was like a double-digit seniority number.

A flying career is about job security. I look back over my career of 50 years and look at my buddies who had the best jobs. They were 121 pilots who got hired at the beginning of a hiring boom like we now going to experience. They made Captain quickly, were never furloughed, although they were screwed with retirement BK, they had a great ride. Go 121, apply everywhere, Spirit, JB, do not make the college degree a show stopper. Once hired stay there build seniority.

BTW: Yes those good paying jobs are out there, but we do not push our children towards those jobs, as a nation we define a college degree as sole source of status in life

 

[IAHERJ]

Ask your kids to approach the profession with an open mind and a fall back plan.

The actual flying part is great. Everything in between, most of it done unpaid, sucks.

The crawl is long and hard and most other professions start out at $110-$150,000/ yr. but a lot of them hit a ceiling pretty quick. And a lot of them are stuck in that M-F/ 9-5 drag. I simply couldn't live that way. Competing with everyone else on weekends to get things done. Life is so crowded in the typical professional/ work world.

I have a pretty good schedule now, and a pretty good life. Could it be better? Yes, but it could be a lot worse too.

I'm in my mid-40s flying left seat for a major and can do $300-$350K/ yr if I really wanted to work for it (I don't, I live below my means and prefer time off to money so $200-$230K/ yr works for me). Most of my FOs make as much or more than me. They have to hustle for it though, I live on min guarantee. There are always trade-offs. In theory, the job should only get better as retirements hit full swing and I have options for either WB or a better schedule on the NB. But even if that doesn't pan out the way one typically predicts, at least I don't have to come in to work every day and kiss butt or play politics to get ahead. My seniority number, for better or worse, dictates my career trajectory.

As far as that post about $210,000 for a DAL 747 Capt. I say no way it's that low for a senior WB captain. Those are min guarantee numbers. Most pilots strive for a bit of OT flying here and there. I would estimate DAL and UA has average 747 captains pulling in North of $300K without trying too hard at all.

We have captains pulling in $350-$400K, some are on the NB. Of course that money won't always be there. They are taking advantage of an understaffing situation flying 200% trips, etc. But that has been the case for the past few years so they seem to pretty consistently be pulling some nice quan. Although, were I them, I certainly wouldn't count on that extra money. Always set up your monthly nut to under your min guarantee.

US Major salaries are still low, when adjusted for inflation, but they are coming back. I'd say it will take another two negotiating cycles to get back in line with where we need to be. Also remember that none of the above mentions the 16% company-funded pension we get in our B plan. Most jobs don't have that. If I do $230,000 this year, that will be an extra $36,800 this year put in my retirement acct in addition to my own 401K contributions which I max every year.

Overall not a bad gig when I compare to some of my non-airline buddies. Sure there are pitfalls (medical, jobs stresses, etc) but that's why we get paid what we do and need to demand even more. The LTD program protects you at least somewhat for the medical. The job stresses (TSA, hotels, sim, company BS, etc), well that's just part of it.

Whenever I get grief from my neighbors, all of whom love to hate airlines, about my seemingly part time schedule, I make no apologies and tell them they too can apply to be an airline pilot. It's an open and free market. I paid a lot of dues to get to where I am today, nearly lost everything 3x. Nothing was given to me. I spent 5 years in the business working 3 jobs and struggling for multi time (back then you needed 400 multi to get a regional airline gig) while trying to get my lucky break in the early 90s. Back then all the airlines were laying off and you were lucky to get a flight instructor job. My "lucky break" was the a regional airline gig where I then spent 9 years including flying various contract gigs overseas while taking a few stints in the corporate world. Despite those ups and downs, I still consider myself fortunate as I have a good buddy who has been stuck at the regionals for 18 years. He's the model new-hire for a legacy, he probably has 16,000+ hrs and his father is a full-term striker, but for whatever reason he can't get hired. Meanwhile I know pilots who were hired at the major in the early 20s. Some get lucky, some don't. It is what it is. Hence the need for a fallback plan.

Same airline, same position, except I'm not quite 40. Maybe I've been lucky but I'm not alone and personally know of several younger than I in the left seat at my carrier. Those getting on now will have similar career paths if things don't change (and we all know how that works....). Would I do it all over? You bet I would.

 

[Twisted Mind]

FurloughedAgain,

I know some guys that were furloughed from several regionals. Some were furloughed 3-4 times. I have no idea how you could survive starting over 2-4 times.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

You laugh it off after a while. Once you come to terms with the fact that you might retire an FO, it's really easy to just let everything else roll off your back.

 

[Twisted Mind]

There is a lot of things that are worse than retiring a Legacy FO.

 

[ultrarunner]

How about asking major airline FOs who will never be CAs due to the stagnation/downturn? At least those who won't/can't be wide body line holding, non-commuting CAs.

I have a good friend who is a 15-year FO and is on a wide-body at a legacy....lives in base, and fully expects, by choice, to retire from that seat due to QOL decisions...


And not bitching...;-)

 

[pilotyip]

I have a good friend who is a 15-year FO and is on a wide-body at a legacy....lives in base, and fully expects, by choice, to retire from that seat due to QOL decisions...


And not bitching...;-)

Buddy in the same spot, Commute to a once a week wide body to Europe as an F/O or commute to 3 to 4 legs a day in junior CA equipment for a $6,000 raise. Hired in 1989, furloughed twice, left Spirit in 1996 to return to legacy FO job. Would now be single digit Captain a Spirit a 45 minute drive from his home. We are so gifted in hindsight in this business

 

[Twisted Mind]

I sat next to a Endeavor guy on a DH. He was possibly the most miserable pilot I have ever talked with. He said he has been with the company for 7 years and is still a FO. Not only still a FO he is still on reserve as an FO! I asked about pay and he said it is around 30k a year. I don't have a clue how/why some of these guys are still flying! 7 years of 30k and getting abused by crew scheduling. You wine about not being a major CA. It could be a lot worse.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

I'm not surprised these guys are still flying, I just don't know why they'd still be flying at their current companies. They're like a woman who refuses to leave an abusive relationship, "Oh, I think it's getting better now." Seriously, stuck at $30k and on reserve as an FO at a regional, you're not really losing much by pulling up the anchor.

 

[pilotyip]

I sat next to a Endeavor guy on a DH. He was possibly the most miserable pilot I have ever talked with. He said he has been with the company for 7 years and is still a FO. Not only still a FO he is still on reserve as an FO! I asked about pay and he said it is around 30k a year. I don't have a clue how/why some of these guys are still flying! 7 years of 30k and getting abused by crew scheduling. You wine about not being a major CA. It could be a lot worse.

Yea but it is scheduled airline. If he wanted to walk down the non-sked road he could go to a place like USA Jet. Start at $52k 172 hard days off per year after one year. Make CA in a year. Get hired at Spirit JB NJ Atlas after 3-5 years. But why would anyone want to do that when they can be a scheduled airline pilot

 

[Twisted Mind]

It wasn't his first go at the rodeo.

 

[IAHERJ]

Yea but it is scheduled airline. If he wanted to walk down the non-sked road he could go to a place like USA Jet. Start at $52k 172 hard days off per year after one year. Make CA in a year. Get hired at Spirit JB NJ Atlas after 3-5 years. But why would anyone want to do that when they can be a scheduled airline pilot

Why do you always act as if the "non-skeds" are so discriminated against? Just flew with an FO who was hired from the fractional world. She spent years flying non sked and fractional and had no issues getting on at UAL.

 

[pilotyip]

Why do you always act as if the "non-skeds" are so discriminated against? Just flew with an FO who was hired from the fractional world. She spent years flying non sked and fractional and had no issues getting on at UAL.

Because of feed back I get while recruiting, a lot of pilots out there look down on flying in the non-sked business. I think there is a feeling that has been reflected here against me by a few, if you work in the non-sked business you are a looser. But all that being said, I think flying in the on-demand gives you the skills that allow you to go to your next job. I have seen too many pilots succeed after spending a few years in the on-demand flying flying aged out junk into dark Mexican airports at 0300.

Pilots get hired at good places because they have Turbine PIC, you must build turbine PIC to have control over your career. You have to go wherever that job is that gets you turbine PIC. You stay in that job until you can get another job that gives you better turbine PIC, i.e. Bigger airplanes, Turbojet, 121, etc. It is called paying your dues everyone must do it. Some do it in the military, some do it at the regionals, and some do in the on-demand business. Everyone pays his or her dues.

So why would you continue build SIC time at $30K, when you could do it at $50K and make PIC in a couple years?

 

[IAHERJ]

Because of feed back I get while recruiting, a lot of pilots out there look down on flying in the non-sked business. I think there is a feeling that has been reflected here against me by a few, if you work in the non-sked business you are a looser. But all that being said, I think flying in the on-demand gives you the skills that allow you to go to your next job. I have seen too many pilots succeed after spending a few years in the on-demand flying flying aged out junk into dark Mexican airports at 0300.

Pilots get hired at good places because they have Turbine PIC, you must build turbine PIC to have control over your career. You have to go wherever that job is that gets you turbine PIC. You stay in that job until you can get another job that gives you better turbine PIC, i.e. Bigger airplanes, Turbojet, 121, etc. It is called paying your dues everyone must do it. Some do it in the military, some do it at the regionals, and some do in the on-demand business. Everyone pays his or her dues.

So why would you continue build SIC time at $30K, when you could do it at $50K and make PIC in a couple years?

We're on the same page here and I question the mentality as you do. With all the hiring going on (and about to begin at more carriers/companies) I don't see why more in the situation above do not vote with their feet.....

 

[Twisted Mind]

Maybe he couldn't move on because of wife/kids etc..... I didn't ask. I did ask why he didn't jump ship and he said he was at a different regional left there and when to current one with a promise of a quick upgrade. So twice it didn't work and he didn't want to start over a third time. YIP, I don't know why he didn't want to do non-scheduled.

 

[IslandDriver]

Overall, the career still has its good with bad but is it getting any worse?

Positives:
Pay at majors is at all time highs. Pilots are home about 12 to 16 days per months. Two pilot crew seems to be the standard now. The actual job is great work.

Negatives:
Lose your job due to furlough, company bankruptcy or loss of medical and you start over. Norwegian air shuttle model is a threat but may get shot down by ALPA. Defined benefit pension plan is gone (most corporations don't have it either).

Would you recommend to son/daughter?

Thanks,

Check Six

Don't know if the pay is at an all time high.. Years ago it was a Cadilac a month....

One of my first guys I flew for was an Airways Captain...retired in 1988. He was making over 300K then...compare that to today's dollars.

But I would recommend it.