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Major Airline Captains, would you recommend career to your son/daughter?

Flopgut

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Not unless he is only happy at the airport, rides their bike or bums a ride with friends to get there, washes airplanes in exchange for rides, mooches rides, gets their ground instructor rating and teaches ground school to make money for lessons, is ok with being tossed off the basketball team because they are sweeping hangars and washing out drip pans instead of making practice, remembers on their 4th touch and go in the pattern that prom was tonight, finds an old guy with an IFR 172 and pays for the annual in exchange for using it to get his instrument rating, sleeps on the couch of the FBO where he instructs in the world's oldest Piper Warrior, waits for the freezing rain to stop that has coated the clapped out Cherokee 6 full of automotive seat belt buckles he's gotten a job flying, calms his wife (and mother-in-law) down when she announces her water has broken and that he'll be back from his overnight in Savannah by 8am, packs up his flight bag for the last time after a shouting match over a logbook write-up with a bitter old chief pilot who "thought I hired a team player", remembers the first time he was a co-pilot and how young the captain he's flying with now looks, and ...

then when he calls to say he's got a class date with Delta, I might recommend he take it.

I dont agree with you much, but this is absolutely correct.
 

SpauldingSmails

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Sounds like you made it to the big time slice. I dunno tho, seems like everyone is getting hired at "da majors". Where you at now?

I landed at Delta.

I had to chuckle at Bird's post - having done a number of things which he mentioned. In my case it wasn't a Cherokee full of seat belts though, it was a shaggy Beech Queen Air full of golf cart brake pedals.
 

tico

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I think it is going the way of the pony express rider and a bunch of other jobs.....Not a necessary skill amd certainly not worth pissing away four years in a degree factory......
 

Flopgut

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I have never said that education means nothing, in fact having an education is the key to a successful career, but college is not the only source of education. In fact college many times provides no skill training that will lead to a decent paying job.

In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We've elevated the importance of "higher education" to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled "alternative." Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as "vocational consolation prizes," best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of "shovel ready" jobs for a society that doesn't encourage people to pick up a shovel.

In a hundred different ways, we have slowly marginalized an entire category of critical professions, reshaping our expectations of a "good job" into something that no longer looks like work. A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber if you can find one is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we'll all be in need of both.

I came here today because guys like my grandfather are no less important to civilized life than they were 50 years ago. Maybe they're in short supply because we don't acknowledge them they way we used to. We leave our check on the kitchen counter, and hope the work gets done. That needs to change.

I'm sensing a bit of plagerism has taken place^^^^^^
 

Roomwithaview

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Teach your kid to work with his/her hands. I have a construction background and have been working with tools since I was a small kid and I'm utterly amazed at how many of my compadre's are inept when it comes to working on their own stuff, house, or even policing the work being done by the usually inept crew that shows up to allegedly "fix" schit.

This will give them a fall back position when they get the great big wake up call that corporate america is full of back stabbing a*s*sholes and conniving p*u*s*sies that couldn't swing a hammer if their life depended on it.

When I got furloughed (Thrice) I always had money because I knew how to do schit outside of flying. It's real comforting to know "the man" won't always own you.

What I'm seeing now is a new breed of the entitlement generation that is being enabled by mommies and daddies that are doing everything humanely possible to make sure "junior" gets a job at their employer just like dear old dad.

I've flown with more than one and it was like a twilight zone episode involving a combo being the stepford wives and the one where Billy Mummy had some sort of eerie powers that allowed him to control adults lives. The one little tool had a daddy who was a check airman and even though on probation felt as if he was bullet proof and could be weak, and a real a$$hole to fly with.

Another was one of our rather famous junior tools whose daddy got him a job and anyone who is anyone here will know him by name. He's a real gem.

The third was just pitiful in that he obviously had done whatever it was Daddy had told him to do since he grew pubes. Pretty sad.

I had opportunities and a father in a business (not flying) and flipped him the bird when it came to working for the family biz until they needed me. I did things that would make him blush and pissed him off more times than not. He grew to respect me for it as you will with your kid. There's nothing more rewarding than having your kid show you how to do something you can't and realizing they're going to make it in this big bad world.

I don't believe in pushing anyone in to anything.
 

pilotyip

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I'm sensing a bit of plagerism has taken place^^^^^^

Maybe, but this is FI, no footnotes, also that doesn't make the post incorrect
 

Blue Dude

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Maybe, but this is FI, no footnotes, also that doesn't make the post incorrect

Maybe if you'd spent more time in school you'd know that taking someone's words for your own without attribution is at very least unethical.
 

SpauldingSmails

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Maybe, but this is FI, no footnotes, also that doesn't make the post incorrect

Yeah, but you palmed it off as your own - what a joke. I'm sure "your grandfather" would be proud of you.
 

The Prussian

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We have ONE TRILLION dollars in student loan debt because buying education on credit makes it easy to buy more than you can afford or really need, or in a field of study that will never pay for itself. A parent shouldn't decide what a child does, but he has every right to decide how their (the parent's) money will be spent and strongly advise against purchasing more education than can be paid for as you go.

YES!!!...and don't forget about THE GOVERNMENT that is supposedly encouraging our kids to do so...and guaranteeing their loans...which in turn has driven college costs into the stratosphere.
 

pilotyip

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Maybe if you'd spent more time in school you'd know that taking someone's words for your own without attribution is at very least unethical.

Is someone with a college degree supposed to know that stuff? BTW I thing I clipped it from the WSJ about three years ago, I was going to be an auto shop teacher and it kinda struck close to home
 
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Roomwithaview

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College Education

More like Pay to Play is the biggest joke, scam in the history of mankind.

Those that do, do. Those that can't teach.

That's who's educating your kids. And, doing so with a severe liberal bent and agenda.

Back in the day kids that couldn't afford college joined the military, or the work force, or didn't go, unless their parents coould afford to send them.

There was none of this boo hooing about "crushing debt".

All propogated by the left and their agenda of assuring themselves they have as many drones as possible to foist on to a bus on election day.

Now Obysmal wants to bail out slackers who don't want to pay off their student loans. That's a real great life lesson.

If you don't want that "crushing debt" then work hard enough to get a scholarship, don't go and get a real job, or, heaven forbid, go to an affordable school tailored to something that will actually earn you a living.
 

pilotyip

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Yeah, but you palmed it off as your own - what a joke. I'm sure "your grandfather" would be proud of you.
sorry, didn't know we needed to do these thing on a site like this.

http://patdollard.com/2011/05/mike-...-doesnt-encourage-people-to-pick-up-a-shovel/

This also counts as education, there are many paths to education beside college

Here is the link, thanks to Mike Rowe

Mike Rowe?s Testimony Before the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation

Chairman Rockefeller, Ranking Member Hutchison and members of this committee, my name is Mike Rowe, and I want to thank you all very much for the opportunity to testify before you today.

I?m here today because of my grandfather.

His name was Carl Knobel, and he made his living in Baltimore as a master electrician. He was also a plumber, a mechanic, a mason, and a carpenter. Everyone knew him as a jack-of-all-trades. I knew him as a magician.

For most of his life, my grandfather woke up clean and came home dirty. In between, he accomplished things that were nothing short of miraculous. Some days he might re-shingle a roof. Or rebuild a motor. Or maybe run electricity out to our barn. He helped build the church I went to as a kid, and the farmhouse my brothers and I grew up in. He could fix or build anything, but to my knowledge he never once read the directions. He just knew how stuff worked.

I remember one Saturday morning when I was 12. I flushed the toilet in the same way I always had. The toilet however, responded in a way that was completely out of character. There was a rumbling sound, followed by a distant gurgle. Then, everything that had gone down reappeared in a rather violent and spectacular fashion.

Naturally, my grandfather was called in to investigate, and within the hour I was invited to join he and my dad in the front yard with picks and shovels.

By lunch, the lawn was littered with fragments of old pipe and mounds of dirt. There was welding and pipe-fitting, blisters and laughter, and maybe some questionable language. By sunset we were completely filthy. But a new pipe was installed, the dirt was back in the hole, and our toilet was back on its best behavior. It was one of my favorite days ever.

Thirty years later in San Francisco when my toilet blew up again. This time, I didn?t participate in the repair process. I just called my landlord, left a check on the kitchen counter, and went to work. When I got home, the mess was cleaned up and the problem was solved. As for the actual plumber who did the work, I never even met him.

It occurred to me that I had become disconnected from a lot of things that used to fascinate me. I no longer thought about where my food came from, or how my electricity worked, or who fixed my pipes, or who made my clothes. There was no reason to. I had become less interested in how things got made, and more interested in how things got bought.

At this point my grandfather was well into his 80s, and after a long visit with him one weekend, I decided to do a TV show in his honor. Today, Dirty Jobs is still on the air, and I am here before this committee, hoping to say something useful. So, here it is.

I believe we need a national PR Campaign for Skilled Labor. A big one. Something that addresses the widening skills gap head on, and reconnects the country with the most important part of our workforce.

Right now, American manufacturing is struggling to fill 200,000 vacant positions. There are 450,000 openings in trades, transportation and utilities. The skills gap is real, and it?s getting wider. In Alabama, a third of all skilled tradesmen are over 55. They?re retiring fast, and no one is there to replace them.

Alabama?s not alone. A few months ago in Atlanta I ran into Tom Vilsack, our Secretary of Agriculture. Tom told me about a governor who was unable to move forward on the construction of a power plant. The reason was telling. It wasn?t a lack of funds. It wasn?t a lack of support. It was a lack of qualified welders.

In general, we?re surprised that high unemployment can exist at the same time as a skilled labor shortage. We shouldn?t be. We?ve pretty much guaranteed it.

In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We?ve elevated the importance of ?higher education? to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled ?alternative.? Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as ?vocational consolation prizes,? best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of ?shovel ready? jobs for a society that doesn?t encourage people to pick up a shovel.

In a hundred different ways, we have slowly marginalized an entire category of critical professions, reshaping our expectations of a ?good job? into something that no longer looks like work. A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber – if you can find one – is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we?ll all be in need of both.

I came here today because guys like my grandfather are no less important to civilized life than they were 50 years ago. Maybe they?re in short supply because we don?t acknowledge them they way we used to. We leave our check on the kitchen counter, and hope the work gets done. That needs to change.

Read more at http://patdollard.com/2011/05/mike-...ople-to-pick-up-a-shovel/#RJyGAHUr3VLj9J3I.99
 

relief tube

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Funny you ask it from captains. A major airline captain is the last person to ask. They got the easiest job and at the farthest removed from the current reality of this industry. Better to ask a regional captain or a new legacy fo.
 

FurloughedAgain

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Funny you ask it from captains. A major airline captain is the last person to ask. They got the easiest job and at the farthest removed from the current reality of this industry. Better to ask a regional captain or a new legacy fo.


YES! Better yet, ask a copilot who started at the regionals in the mid 90s and got to a major just before 9/11. Most of them were subjected to the "lost decade" bouncing around a variety of jobs for the last ten years while those Captains managed to increase retirement age to 65 further delaying recalls. Only now are most getting back to the carriers they were furloughed from or starting over at new majors in their 40s. Some settled for life at second tier carriers, the regionals, corporate, or left flying altogether.

Those are the ones who you should ask.
 

Pan1900

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No. At this point, I just trying to ride out to retirement. It's getting tiring that we have to fight for everything.
 

Angus Khan

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YES! Better yet, ask a copilot who started at the regionals in the mid 90s and got to a major just before 9/11. Most of them were subjected to the "lost decade" bouncing around a variety of jobs for the last ten years while those Captains managed to increase retirement age to 65 further delaying recalls. Only now are most getting back to the carriers they were furloughed from or starting over at new majors in their 40s. Some settled for life at second tier carriers, the regionals, corporate, or left flying altogether.

Those are the ones who you should ask.

Exactly! Right or wrong, good parenting or not, I've directed my kids aways from this profession. Way too many pitfalls. A decade of furlough and permanent career stagnation has greatly altered my perspective.

Choose a career where your skills are multi-faceted, that can be used in different ways and will be in demand. Oh, and where you can have the freedom to take your marketable skills to a better employer and not be penalized.
 

jmreii

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America has a skills gap between past and present generations self inflicted by America itself. In order to bridge the skills gap its going to cost money in which I for one don't want to pay!
 

whymeworry?

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Ask your kids to approach the profession with an open mind and a fall back plan.

The actual flying part is great. Everything in between, most of it done unpaid, sucks.

The crawl is long and hard and most other professions start out at $110-$150,000/ yr. but a lot of them hit a ceiling pretty quick. And a lot of them are stuck in that M-F/ 9-5 drag. I simply couldn't live that way. Competing with everyone else on weekends to get things done. Life is so crowded in the typical professional/ work world.

I have a pretty good schedule now, and a pretty good life. Could it be better? Yes, but it could be a lot worse too.

I'm in my mid-40s flying left seat for a major and can do $300-$350K/ yr if I really wanted to work for it (I don't, I live below my means and prefer time off to money so $200-$230K/ yr works for me). Most of my FOs make as much or more than me. They have to hustle for it though, I live on min guarantee. There are always trade-offs. In theory, the job should only get better as retirements hit full swing and I have options for either WB or a better schedule on the NB. But even if that doesn't pan out the way one typically predicts, at least I don't have to come in to work every day and kiss butt or play politics to get ahead. My seniority number, for better or worse, dictates my career trajectory.

As far as that post about $210,000 for a DAL 747 Capt. I say no way it's that low for a senior WB captain. Those are min guarantee numbers. Most pilots strive for a bit of OT flying here and there. I would estimate DAL and UA has average 747 captains pulling in North of $300K without trying too hard at all.

We have captains pulling in $350-$400K, some are on the NB. Of course that money won't always be there. They are taking advantage of an understaffing situation flying 200% trips, etc. But that has been the case for the past few years so they seem to pretty consistently be pulling some nice quan. Although, were I them, I certainly wouldn't count on that extra money. Always set up your monthly nut to under your min guarantee.

US Major salaries are still low, when adjusted for inflation, but they are coming back. I'd say it will take another two negotiating cycles to get back in line with where we need to be. Also remember that none of the above mentions the 16% company-funded pension we get in our B plan. Most jobs don't have that. If I do $230,000 this year, that will be an extra $36,800 this year put in my retirement acct in addition to my own 401K contributions which I max every year.

Overall not a bad gig when I compare to some of my non-airline buddies. Sure there are pitfalls (medical, jobs stresses, etc) but that's why we get paid what we do and need to demand even more. The LTD program protects you at least somewhat for the medical. The job stresses (TSA, hotels, sim, company BS, etc), well that's just part of it.

Whenever I get grief from my neighbors, all of whom love to hate airlines, about my seemingly part time schedule, I make no apologies and tell them they too can apply to be an airline pilot. It's an open and free market. I paid a lot of dues to get to where I am today, nearly lost everything 3x. Nothing was given to me. I spent 5 years in the business working 3 jobs and struggling for multi time (back then you needed 400 multi to get a regional airline gig) while trying to get my lucky break in the early 90s. Back then all the airlines were laying off and you were lucky to get a flight instructor job. My "lucky break" was the a regional airline gig where I then spent 9 years including flying various contract gigs overseas while taking a few stints in the corporate world. Despite those ups and downs, I still consider myself fortunate as I have a good buddy who has been stuck at the regionals for 18 years. He's the model new-hire for a legacy, he probably has 16,000+ hrs and his father is a full-term striker, but for whatever reason he can't get hired. Meanwhile I know pilots who were hired at the major in the early 20s. Some get lucky, some don't. It is what it is. Hence the need for a fallback plan.
 

B6Driver

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I would love it if my son decided to do this as well. It's been very good for my family and I and see things only getting better as time goes on IMO. Timing is everything in life and this profession is no exception.
 
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