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Major Airline Captains, would you recommend career to your son/daughter?

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Maybe if you'd spent more time in school you'd know that taking someone's words for your own without attribution is at very least unethical.

Is someone with a college degree supposed to know that stuff? BTW I thing I clipped it from the WSJ about three years ago, I was going to be an auto shop teacher and it kinda struck close to home
 
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College Education

More like Pay to Play is the biggest joke, scam in the history of mankind.

Those that do, do. Those that can't teach.

That's who's educating your kids. And, doing so with a severe liberal bent and agenda.

Back in the day kids that couldn't afford college joined the military, or the work force, or didn't go, unless their parents coould afford to send them.

There was none of this boo hooing about "crushing debt".

All propogated by the left and their agenda of assuring themselves they have as many drones as possible to foist on to a bus on election day.

Now Obysmal wants to bail out slackers who don't want to pay off their student loans. That's a real great life lesson.

If you don't want that "crushing debt" then work hard enough to get a scholarship, don't go and get a real job, or, heaven forbid, go to an affordable school tailored to something that will actually earn you a living.
 
Yeah, but you palmed it off as your own - what a joke. I'm sure "your grandfather" would be proud of you.
sorry, didn't know we needed to do these thing on a site like this.

http://patdollard.com/2011/05/mike-...-doesnt-encourage-people-to-pick-up-a-shovel/

This also counts as education, there are many paths to education beside college

Here is the link, thanks to Mike Rowe

Mike Rowe?s Testimony Before the U.S. Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation

Chairman Rockefeller, Ranking Member Hutchison and members of this committee, my name is Mike Rowe, and I want to thank you all very much for the opportunity to testify before you today.

I?m here today because of my grandfather.

His name was Carl Knobel, and he made his living in Baltimore as a master electrician. He was also a plumber, a mechanic, a mason, and a carpenter. Everyone knew him as a jack-of-all-trades. I knew him as a magician.

For most of his life, my grandfather woke up clean and came home dirty. In between, he accomplished things that were nothing short of miraculous. Some days he might re-shingle a roof. Or rebuild a motor. Or maybe run electricity out to our barn. He helped build the church I went to as a kid, and the farmhouse my brothers and I grew up in. He could fix or build anything, but to my knowledge he never once read the directions. He just knew how stuff worked.

I remember one Saturday morning when I was 12. I flushed the toilet in the same way I always had. The toilet however, responded in a way that was completely out of character. There was a rumbling sound, followed by a distant gurgle. Then, everything that had gone down reappeared in a rather violent and spectacular fashion.

Naturally, my grandfather was called in to investigate, and within the hour I was invited to join he and my dad in the front yard with picks and shovels.

By lunch, the lawn was littered with fragments of old pipe and mounds of dirt. There was welding and pipe-fitting, blisters and laughter, and maybe some questionable language. By sunset we were completely filthy. But a new pipe was installed, the dirt was back in the hole, and our toilet was back on its best behavior. It was one of my favorite days ever.

Thirty years later in San Francisco when my toilet blew up again. This time, I didn?t participate in the repair process. I just called my landlord, left a check on the kitchen counter, and went to work. When I got home, the mess was cleaned up and the problem was solved. As for the actual plumber who did the work, I never even met him.

It occurred to me that I had become disconnected from a lot of things that used to fascinate me. I no longer thought about where my food came from, or how my electricity worked, or who fixed my pipes, or who made my clothes. There was no reason to. I had become less interested in how things got made, and more interested in how things got bought.

At this point my grandfather was well into his 80s, and after a long visit with him one weekend, I decided to do a TV show in his honor. Today, Dirty Jobs is still on the air, and I am here before this committee, hoping to say something useful. So, here it is.

I believe we need a national PR Campaign for Skilled Labor. A big one. Something that addresses the widening skills gap head on, and reconnects the country with the most important part of our workforce.

Right now, American manufacturing is struggling to fill 200,000 vacant positions. There are 450,000 openings in trades, transportation and utilities. The skills gap is real, and it?s getting wider. In Alabama, a third of all skilled tradesmen are over 55. They?re retiring fast, and no one is there to replace them.

Alabama?s not alone. A few months ago in Atlanta I ran into Tom Vilsack, our Secretary of Agriculture. Tom told me about a governor who was unable to move forward on the construction of a power plant. The reason was telling. It wasn?t a lack of funds. It wasn?t a lack of support. It was a lack of qualified welders.

In general, we?re surprised that high unemployment can exist at the same time as a skilled labor shortage. We shouldn?t be. We?ve pretty much guaranteed it.

In high schools, the vocational arts have all but vanished. We?ve elevated the importance of ?higher education? to such a lofty perch that all other forms of knowledge are now labeled ?alternative.? Millions of parents and kids see apprenticeships and on-the-job-training opportunities as ?vocational consolation prizes,? best suited for those not cut out for a four-year degree. And still, we talk about millions of ?shovel ready? jobs for a society that doesn?t encourage people to pick up a shovel.

In a hundred different ways, we have slowly marginalized an entire category of critical professions, reshaping our expectations of a ?good job? into something that no longer looks like work. A few years from now, an hour with a good plumber – if you can find one – is going to cost more than an hour with a good psychiatrist. At which point we?ll all be in need of both.

I came here today because guys like my grandfather are no less important to civilized life than they were 50 years ago. Maybe they?re in short supply because we don?t acknowledge them they way we used to. We leave our check on the kitchen counter, and hope the work gets done. That needs to change.

Read more at http://patdollard.com/2011/05/mike-...ople-to-pick-up-a-shovel/#RJyGAHUr3VLj9J3I.99
 
Funny you ask it from captains. A major airline captain is the last person to ask. They got the easiest job and at the farthest removed from the current reality of this industry. Better to ask a regional captain or a new legacy fo.
 
Funny you ask it from captains. A major airline captain is the last person to ask. They got the easiest job and at the farthest removed from the current reality of this industry. Better to ask a regional captain or a new legacy fo.


YES! Better yet, ask a copilot who started at the regionals in the mid 90s and got to a major just before 9/11. Most of them were subjected to the "lost decade" bouncing around a variety of jobs for the last ten years while those Captains managed to increase retirement age to 65 further delaying recalls. Only now are most getting back to the carriers they were furloughed from or starting over at new majors in their 40s. Some settled for life at second tier carriers, the regionals, corporate, or left flying altogether.

Those are the ones who you should ask.
 
No. At this point, I just trying to ride out to retirement. It's getting tiring that we have to fight for everything.
 
YES! Better yet, ask a copilot who started at the regionals in the mid 90s and got to a major just before 9/11. Most of them were subjected to the "lost decade" bouncing around a variety of jobs for the last ten years while those Captains managed to increase retirement age to 65 further delaying recalls. Only now are most getting back to the carriers they were furloughed from or starting over at new majors in their 40s. Some settled for life at second tier carriers, the regionals, corporate, or left flying altogether.

Those are the ones who you should ask.

Exactly! Right or wrong, good parenting or not, I've directed my kids aways from this profession. Way too many pitfalls. A decade of furlough and permanent career stagnation has greatly altered my perspective.

Choose a career where your skills are multi-faceted, that can be used in different ways and will be in demand. Oh, and where you can have the freedom to take your marketable skills to a better employer and not be penalized.
 
America has a skills gap between past and present generations self inflicted by America itself. In order to bridge the skills gap its going to cost money in which I for one don't want to pay!
 
Ask your kids to approach the profession with an open mind and a fall back plan.

The actual flying part is great. Everything in between, most of it done unpaid, sucks.

The crawl is long and hard and most other professions start out at $110-$150,000/ yr. but a lot of them hit a ceiling pretty quick. And a lot of them are stuck in that M-F/ 9-5 drag. I simply couldn't live that way. Competing with everyone else on weekends to get things done. Life is so crowded in the typical professional/ work world.

I have a pretty good schedule now, and a pretty good life. Could it be better? Yes, but it could be a lot worse too.

I'm in my mid-40s flying left seat for a major and can do $300-$350K/ yr if I really wanted to work for it (I don't, I live below my means and prefer time off to money so $200-$230K/ yr works for me). Most of my FOs make as much or more than me. They have to hustle for it though, I live on min guarantee. There are always trade-offs. In theory, the job should only get better as retirements hit full swing and I have options for either WB or a better schedule on the NB. But even if that doesn't pan out the way one typically predicts, at least I don't have to come in to work every day and kiss butt or play politics to get ahead. My seniority number, for better or worse, dictates my career trajectory.

As far as that post about $210,000 for a DAL 747 Capt. I say no way it's that low for a senior WB captain. Those are min guarantee numbers. Most pilots strive for a bit of OT flying here and there. I would estimate DAL and UA has average 747 captains pulling in North of $300K without trying too hard at all.

We have captains pulling in $350-$400K, some are on the NB. Of course that money won't always be there. They are taking advantage of an understaffing situation flying 200% trips, etc. But that has been the case for the past few years so they seem to pretty consistently be pulling some nice quan. Although, were I them, I certainly wouldn't count on that extra money. Always set up your monthly nut to under your min guarantee.

US Major salaries are still low, when adjusted for inflation, but they are coming back. I'd say it will take another two negotiating cycles to get back in line with where we need to be. Also remember that none of the above mentions the 16% company-funded pension we get in our B plan. Most jobs don't have that. If I do $230,000 this year, that will be an extra $36,800 this year put in my retirement acct in addition to my own 401K contributions which I max every year.

Overall not a bad gig when I compare to some of my non-airline buddies. Sure there are pitfalls (medical, jobs stresses, etc) but that's why we get paid what we do and need to demand even more. The LTD program protects you at least somewhat for the medical. The job stresses (TSA, hotels, sim, company BS, etc), well that's just part of it.

Whenever I get grief from my neighbors, all of whom love to hate airlines, about my seemingly part time schedule, I make no apologies and tell them they too can apply to be an airline pilot. It's an open and free market. I paid a lot of dues to get to where I am today, nearly lost everything 3x. Nothing was given to me. I spent 5 years in the business working 3 jobs and struggling for multi time (back then you needed 400 multi to get a regional airline gig) while trying to get my lucky break in the early 90s. Back then all the airlines were laying off and you were lucky to get a flight instructor job. My "lucky break" was the a regional airline gig where I then spent 9 years including flying various contract gigs overseas while taking a few stints in the corporate world. Despite those ups and downs, I still consider myself fortunate as I have a good buddy who has been stuck at the regionals for 18 years. He's the model new-hire for a legacy, he probably has 16,000+ hrs and his father is a full-term striker, but for whatever reason he can't get hired. Meanwhile I know pilots who were hired at the major in the early 20s. Some get lucky, some don't. It is what it is. Hence the need for a fallback plan.
 
I would love it if my son decided to do this as well. It's been very good for my family and I and see things only getting better as time goes on IMO. Timing is everything in life and this profession is no exception.
 
The crawl is long and hard and most other professions start out at $110-$150,000/ yr.
Average college grad starts at around $30K, Law School Grads are serving college at Starbucks, and Doctors trying to start their practice are drilling in the reserves to make ends meet. Tells about these 6 figure profession jobs that start in that range.
 
I love flying airplanes and hope to share that love with my son someday - as a hobby. As a profession, flying exacts too great a price in terms of time away from home and family. When this is added to the stresses a family must endure du to relocations, furloughs, and perennial concerns regarding checkrides and medicals I believe that the risk outweighs the reward.

The post 9/11 generation of pilots has seen some stagnation, but nothing more. The pre 9/11 generation of pilots endured far more when viewed through the lens of how destructive we are to our own careers : RJs, scope, loss of retirement, decade long furloughs, pilot unions they defend only the senior...

Time is our enemy. I took my first major airline job at 25. Five jobs later I am 41. Where has the time gone? And what do I have to show from those lost years?

I hope my son chooses another path.
 
What planet are you on? Is it a long commute for you?

Average college grad starts at around $30K, Law School Grads are serving college at Starbucks, and Doctors trying to start their practice are drilling in the reserves to make ends meet. Tells about these 6 figure profession jobs that start in that range.

Nobody pays dues like an airline pilot. It is what it is. I know plenty of kids w/o degrees who are pulling in $200K/ yr working the off-shore oil fields. Met a guy the other day who left being a P.T. to become a pilot. He told me at 22 yrs of age he was making $100,000/ yr. That was 15 yrs ago. Even when I left aviation for a time due to no jobs in the early 90s, I was pulling in $100K/ yr in the financial services world... that was over 20 years ago. One of the guys I surf with just graduated from a maritime academy. He told me his starting salary will be around $130K as a first mate on a commerical tug in the oil and gas business. When I told him and a group of his buddies, who also recently graduated, what airline pilots start out at, they were pretty amazed but also indifferent. "That's why I got into this business and not that one" were their responses. Of course, I didn't tell them what I make now. Nor how much time off I get.

Sure there are professions that pay $30-$45K starting. But for the ambitious type, like those that are in this business, there are professions that pay 6 figures starting quite easily. I'm am surprised y'all don't know this.

The point behind my post remains the same, there is a bit of luck involved to landing that major airline gig and as such one should have a fallback plan if things don't go the way they anticipated.
 
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The point behind my post remains the same, there is a bit of luck involved to landing that major airline gig and as such one should have a fallback plan if things don't go the way they anticipated.


Actually we agree on this. All the preparation in the world does not guarantee you are making the right choices. Shows you just never know about that job. It has been said that is will take you 10 years to determine if you made the right move. There is tremendous amount of luck in picking any job.

I look at my highly qualified squadron mates and the moves they made. Like leaving FedEx for Braniff I in 1978 , it folded in 1982. We had another guy bail from GM Corp in 1979 for Braniff; he would have been at GM through the glory years. How about all the guys who bailed from SWA, UPS and FedEx for the major jobs at DAL, AAL, UAL etc in 2000. You just never know.

I reported aboard CVAN-65 USS Enterprise in 1975. At that time civilian flying jobs a scarce. I meet this guy who is getting out, going to work for company doing overnight mail, paid $400/mo for a F/O's job, he had to use his GI bill for training in the right seat of the DA-20. The company must have had a gov't contract I thought with a name like Federal Express. He stayed at FedEx, ran across him at a CO's conference in the late 80's he was like a double-digit seniority number.

A flying career is about job security. I look back over my career of 50 years and look at my buddies who had the best jobs. They were 121 pilots who got hired at the beginning of a hiring boom like we now going to experience. They made Captain quickly, were never furloughed, although they were screwed with retirement BK, they had a great ride. Go 121, apply everywhere, Spirit, JB, do not make the college degree a show stopper. Once hired stay there build seniority.

BTW: Yes those good paying jobs are out there, but we do not push our children towards those jobs, as a nation we define a college degree as sole source of status in life
 
Ask your kids to approach the profession with an open mind and a fall back plan.

The actual flying part is great. Everything in between, most of it done unpaid, sucks.

The crawl is long and hard and most other professions start out at $110-$150,000/ yr. but a lot of them hit a ceiling pretty quick. And a lot of them are stuck in that M-F/ 9-5 drag. I simply couldn't live that way. Competing with everyone else on weekends to get things done. Life is so crowded in the typical professional/ work world.

I have a pretty good schedule now, and a pretty good life. Could it be better? Yes, but it could be a lot worse too.

I'm in my mid-40s flying left seat for a major and can do $300-$350K/ yr if I really wanted to work for it (I don't, I live below my means and prefer time off to money so $200-$230K/ yr works for me). Most of my FOs make as much or more than me. They have to hustle for it though, I live on min guarantee. There are always trade-offs. In theory, the job should only get better as retirements hit full swing and I have options for either WB or a better schedule on the NB. But even if that doesn't pan out the way one typically predicts, at least I don't have to come in to work every day and kiss butt or play politics to get ahead. My seniority number, for better or worse, dictates my career trajectory.

As far as that post about $210,000 for a DAL 747 Capt. I say no way it's that low for a senior WB captain. Those are min guarantee numbers. Most pilots strive for a bit of OT flying here and there. I would estimate DAL and UA has average 747 captains pulling in North of $300K without trying too hard at all.

We have captains pulling in $350-$400K, some are on the NB. Of course that money won't always be there. They are taking advantage of an understaffing situation flying 200% trips, etc. But that has been the case for the past few years so they seem to pretty consistently be pulling some nice quan. Although, were I them, I certainly wouldn't count on that extra money. Always set up your monthly nut to under your min guarantee.

US Major salaries are still low, when adjusted for inflation, but they are coming back. I'd say it will take another two negotiating cycles to get back in line with where we need to be. Also remember that none of the above mentions the 16% company-funded pension we get in our B plan. Most jobs don't have that. If I do $230,000 this year, that will be an extra $36,800 this year put in my retirement acct in addition to my own 401K contributions which I max every year.

Overall not a bad gig when I compare to some of my non-airline buddies. Sure there are pitfalls (medical, jobs stresses, etc) but that's why we get paid what we do and need to demand even more. The LTD program protects you at least somewhat for the medical. The job stresses (TSA, hotels, sim, company BS, etc), well that's just part of it.

Whenever I get grief from my neighbors, all of whom love to hate airlines, about my seemingly part time schedule, I make no apologies and tell them they too can apply to be an airline pilot. It's an open and free market. I paid a lot of dues to get to where I am today, nearly lost everything 3x. Nothing was given to me. I spent 5 years in the business working 3 jobs and struggling for multi time (back then you needed 400 multi to get a regional airline gig) while trying to get my lucky break in the early 90s. Back then all the airlines were laying off and you were lucky to get a flight instructor job. My "lucky break" was the a regional airline gig where I then spent 9 years including flying various contract gigs overseas while taking a few stints in the corporate world. Despite those ups and downs, I still consider myself fortunate as I have a good buddy who has been stuck at the regionals for 18 years. He's the model new-hire for a legacy, he probably has 16,000+ hrs and his father is a full-term striker, but for whatever reason he can't get hired. Meanwhile I know pilots who were hired at the major in the early 20s. Some get lucky, some don't. It is what it is. Hence the need for a fallback plan.

Same airline, same position, except I'm not quite 40. Maybe I've been lucky but I'm not alone and personally know of several younger than I in the left seat at my carrier. Those getting on now will have similar career paths if things don't change (and we all know how that works....). Would I do it all over? You bet I would.
 
You laugh it off after a while. Once you come to terms with the fact that you might retire an FO, it's really easy to just let everything else roll off your back.
 
How about asking major airline FOs who will never be CAs due to the stagnation/downturn? At least those who won't/can't be wide body line holding, non-commuting CAs.

I have a good friend who is a 15-year FO and is on a wide-body at a legacy....lives in base, and fully expects, by choice, to retire from that seat due to QOL decisions...


And not bitching...;-)
 
I have a good friend who is a 15-year FO and is on a wide-body at a legacy....lives in base, and fully expects, by choice, to retire from that seat due to QOL decisions...


And not bitching...;-)
Buddy in the same spot, Commute to a once a week wide body to Europe as an F/O or commute to 3 to 4 legs a day in junior CA equipment for a $6,000 raise. Hired in 1989, furloughed twice, left Spirit in 1996 to return to legacy FO job. Would now be single digit Captain a Spirit a 45 minute drive from his home. We are so gifted in hindsight in this business
 
I sat next to a Endeavor guy on a DH. He was possibly the most miserable pilot I have ever talked with. He said he has been with the company for 7 years and is still a FO. Not only still a FO he is still on reserve as an FO! I asked about pay and he said it is around 30k a year. I don't have a clue how/why some of these guys are still flying! 7 years of 30k and getting abused by crew scheduling. You wine about not being a major CA. It could be a lot worse.
 
I'm not surprised these guys are still flying, I just don't know why they'd still be flying at their current companies. They're like a woman who refuses to leave an abusive relationship, "Oh, I think it's getting better now." Seriously, stuck at $30k and on reserve as an FO at a regional, you're not really losing much by pulling up the anchor.
 
I sat next to a Endeavor guy on a DH. He was possibly the most miserable pilot I have ever talked with. He said he has been with the company for 7 years and is still a FO. Not only still a FO he is still on reserve as an FO! I asked about pay and he said it is around 30k a year. I don't have a clue how/why some of these guys are still flying! 7 years of 30k and getting abused by crew scheduling. You wine about not being a major CA. It could be a lot worse.

Yea but it is scheduled airline. If he wanted to walk down the non-sked road he could go to a place like USA Jet. Start at $52k 172 hard days off per year after one year. Make CA in a year. Get hired at Spirit JB NJ Atlas after 3-5 years. But why would anyone want to do that when they can be a scheduled airline pilot
 
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Yea but it is scheduled airline. If he wanted to walk down the non-sked road he could go to a place like USA Jet. Start at $52k 172 hard days off per year after one year. Make CA in a year. Get hired at Spirit JB NJ Atlas after 3-5 years. But why would anyone want to do that when they can be a scheduled airline pilot

Why do you always act as if the "non-skeds" are so discriminated against? Just flew with an FO who was hired from the fractional world. She spent years flying non sked and fractional and had no issues getting on at UAL.
 
Why do you always act as if the "non-skeds" are so discriminated against? Just flew with an FO who was hired from the fractional world. She spent years flying non sked and fractional and had no issues getting on at UAL.
Because of feed back I get while recruiting, a lot of pilots out there look down on flying in the non-sked business. I think there is a feeling that has been reflected here against me by a few, if you work in the non-sked business you are a looser. But all that being said, I think flying in the on-demand gives you the skills that allow you to go to your next job. I have seen too many pilots succeed after spending a few years in the on-demand flying flying aged out junk into dark Mexican airports at 0300.

Pilots get hired at good places because they have Turbine PIC, you must build turbine PIC to have control over your career. You have to go wherever that job is that gets you turbine PIC. You stay in that job until you can get another job that gives you better turbine PIC, i.e. Bigger airplanes, Turbojet, 121, etc. It is called paying your dues everyone must do it. Some do it in the military, some do it at the regionals, and some do in the on-demand business. Everyone pays his or her dues.

So why would you continue build SIC time at $30K, when you could do it at $50K and make PIC in a couple years?
 
Because of feed back I get while recruiting, a lot of pilots out there look down on flying in the non-sked business. I think there is a feeling that has been reflected here against me by a few, if you work in the non-sked business you are a looser. But all that being said, I think flying in the on-demand gives you the skills that allow you to go to your next job. I have seen too many pilots succeed after spending a few years in the on-demand flying flying aged out junk into dark Mexican airports at 0300.

Pilots get hired at good places because they have Turbine PIC, you must build turbine PIC to have control over your career. You have to go wherever that job is that gets you turbine PIC. You stay in that job until you can get another job that gives you better turbine PIC, i.e. Bigger airplanes, Turbojet, 121, etc. It is called paying your dues everyone must do it. Some do it in the military, some do it at the regionals, and some do in the on-demand business. Everyone pays his or her dues.

So why would you continue build SIC time at $30K, when you could do it at $50K and make PIC in a couple years?


We're on the same page here and I question the mentality as you do. With all the hiring going on (and about to begin at more carriers/companies) I don't see why more in the situation above do not vote with their feet.....
 
Maybe he couldn't move on because of wife/kids etc..... I didn't ask. I did ask why he didn't jump ship and he said he was at a different regional left there and when to current one with a promise of a quick upgrade. So twice it didn't work and he didn't want to start over a third time. YIP, I don't know why he didn't want to do non-scheduled.
 
Overall, the career still has its good with bad but is it getting any worse?

Positives:
Pay at majors is at all time highs. Pilots are home about 12 to 16 days per months. Two pilot crew seems to be the standard now. The actual job is great work.

Negatives:
Lose your job due to furlough, company bankruptcy or loss of medical and you start over. Norwegian air shuttle model is a threat but may get shot down by ALPA. Defined benefit pension plan is gone (most corporations don't have it either).

Would you recommend to son/daughter?

Thanks,

Check Six

Don't know if the pay is at an all time high.. Years ago it was a Cadilac a month....

One of my first guys I flew for was an Airways Captain...retired in 1988. He was making over 300K then...compare that to today's dollars.

But I would recommend it.
 

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