Mainline scope clauses

[trainerjet]

But they can't ignore the regional pilot either because we keep chipping away at their job base.

And evidently, will delightfully continue to do so, no matter what the cost, until there is no "job base" left.

 

[enigma]

If there was true unity at your carrier, you wouldn't need the MEC to decree this officially, all you'd have to do is spread the word "don't take OT until we have everyone off furlough".

True, but some of the OT hogs are on the record as committing to stop if the MEC would take a stand. It's a matter of leadership, and even though some of the MEC would like to say "no OT" they are not allowed by national.

regards,
enigma

 

[PCL_128]

True, but some of the OT hogs are on the record as committing to stop if the MEC would take a stand. It's a matter of leadership, and even though some of the MEC would like to say "no OT" they are not allowed by national.

That's because National is smarter than you give them credit for. Despite your thinking that it would be an open-and-shut case, an MEC making an official statement about not picking up open time would leave ALPA open to a very costly lawsuit. Any sort of work slow-down can be considered an illegal work action unless you have been released by the NMB.

It is possible that ALPA would win the case, but I wouldn't want ALPA to risk the dollars to find out. There are much better uses of dues money than fighting another lawsuit.

All of the guys claiming that they are just looking for leadership from the MEC are most likely just passing the buck anyway. This is just their excuse. They want to pick up the open time, so they are going to whether the MEC makes a statement on it or not. As Stillaboo said, if these guys had any balls or integrity they would not be picking up the open time anyway. If the MEC came out with a statement, they would just find another excuse to pick up the OT. Some people just have no respect for their fellow pilots.

 

[stillaboo]

As Stillaboo said, if these guys had any balls or integrity they would not be picking up the open time anyway.

I don't think what I said was that hostile, but you've captured the spirt of it nicely.

-Boo!

 

[goldentrout]

Freight Dog says

"I've been trying to catch a ride on SWA back to Hawaii, but when I was told there were no flights, I went to JetBlue. They laughed at me. I didn't even see Airtran that far west and Frontier was nowhere to be seen. That's just in-country. Sometime this fall, I'm planning on going to Europe. Can I take JetBlue?"

Each of these Jet Blue and AirTran just put in an order for 100 jets. Jet blue is buying 90 seat RJs, and AirTran 737s. SWA will add 92 aircraft in the next 30 months according to USA Today

Jet Blue will probably use the 90 seaters east of the Mississippi, and then use their Airbus fleet for transcontinental stuff.

AirTran will use their 717s east of Mississippi, and their 737s transcontinental.

Just wait...you'll be seeing blue and green and brown tails all over this country in the next few years.

It may be five years or so, but you'll eventually see the low cost carriers move internationally. It's just a business eventuality.

The low cost carriers have seen they can provide pretty much the same service as the big mainline carriers, with significantly less overhead, keep their employees happy with respectable (but not outrageous) salaries, and make money.

It's just a matter of time before this same business model begins to compete with the big carriers internationally.

I'll also go out on a limb and say that in 5-10 years one of the big carriers will be bought by Jet Blue or AirTran. I'd say US Air is the likely candidate, since they are competition on the east coast.

AirTran has apparently decided to go head to head with DAL out of ATL. I was in ATl last Sunday and it was packed. If ATL is full of pax and DAL is still losing hundreds of millions a quarter, there is no way DAL will be able to compete with AirTran by undercutting thier ticket prices as they would have done in better times.

It continually amazes me that some refuse to see profound changes the low cost carriers have and will continue to cause int he airline industry.

An airline ticket is now a commodity. The consumer will buy the lowest price commodity that satisfys his/her needs. With new planes and satelite TV in many of the "low cost" carriers'aircraft, it will be hard (if not impossible) for DAL/UAL/NWA/AMR to sell themselves as a "better product."

 

[goldentrout]

FlyDeltaJets says

"P.S.
It ain't about "max pay to the last day." It is about fighting to keep the salaries as close to where they belong as possible. What many forget is that the only reason that the salaries at the carriers you mentioned are respectable is that they are based on undercutting their competition. If the salaries fall at the competition, you can bet theirs will fall as well. In short, more people should be cheering any pilot group that fights for high pay, rather than criticizing them for it. We are all affected."

If your union had long ago been more worried about the long term financial viability of the company, than getting salaries "where they belong," you guys may not be facing the reductions you are looking today.

This is exactly where the union has its head in the sand...just because us pilots and mechanics FEEL our skills are worth 200k/yr doesn't mean that the airline market will provide revenue to pay us that kind of money.

I'm all for you guys getting as much pay as possible. I hope you get more planes and routes, even if you replace one of our 70 seaters with a mad dog. When a DAL route gets more pax and a bigger plane, that's good for all of us. I hope mainline grows as much as possible, because that will translate into good things for all in DAL

See, that's the difference between you and me. When I look at contract talks, while I want to get a respectable salary, my prime concern is that we don't put the company in bankruptcy.

You guys ought to be working with management to come up with a plan whereby they can buy and use the planes they need for max profitability, with the understanding that your guys fly them.

Instead, as you stated, your primary concern is "fighting to keep the salaries as close to where they belong as possible." There's not much difference between "max pay to the last day" and "max pay as long as possible."

Your MEC had to know (as did the MECs at NWA/UAL/AMR/US Air) that there was no way over even the course of their contracts that the revenue bubble of the mid to late 1990s was sustainable...yet they based your contracts on that revenue model.

Ultimately, though, managment is to blame because they signed their names to their own death warrants.

 

[Otto_Pilot]

"See, that's the difference between you and me. When I look at contract talks, while I want to get a respectable salary, my prime concern is that we don't put the company in bankruptcy."

That is a very respectable position to take and I admire you for taking it.

However...

We are not management. We're coal miners who punch a clock to go to work and punch a clock to go home. We generate a product for management. Our product is revenue passenger miles and we create it by the safe and skillful use of heavy machinery.

We are not white-collar workers no matter how much you want us to be.

As such, when we enter into contract talks we do so with the understanding that we will ask for the moon, and the company will ask for the dirt.

We will fight to get as much as possible -- and it is up to the company to determine exactly what they can afford to pay.

Our negotiating practice is pure supply and demand. We look around the industry and determine our value based upon our peers. We have a skill-set that can not be easily, quickly, or inexpensively replaced. Our skills have value.

Now since the pilot "brotherhood" is a load of cr@p -- we're all engaged in this race to the bottom. We're all willing to do each others jobs cheaper than our buddy because we all want more flying, bigger airplanes, bigger paychecks.

ALPA's motto: "I got mine. Screw you." is more true today than at any time in its history.

So yes, I admire you for working towards the health of your company. We all want our companies to do well -- however, dont do management's job for them. It's THEIR job to tell us that we make too much money --- not yours.

 

[goldentrout]

Otto Pilot

Being a big market person myself, I'll concede the fact that pilots' benefit requests are simply the supply side of the equation.

If you read the last part of my post, it said management is ultimatley responsible for their own death warrrant

However, the way I view the history of ALPA bargaining is as follows.

We, the MEC (read senior guys), will get as much as we can in the shortest time possible. If that means that hundreds or even thousands of pilots get laid off every 5-10 years due to economic cycles...them's is the breaks...we have to "preserve" the profession.

This policy has led to bankruptcy at UAL/US Air and almost at AMR. NWA nd DAL are certainly looking at 20-25% pay cuts, not to mention 1500-2000 pilots on furlough, if not more.

Pilots are smart people, and the MECs have been around long enough to understand the game.

If management is too stupid or too gutless to tell us to take a hike when we demand outrageous benefits, then our MECs need to do the right thing and ensure the viability of the company themselves. Instead, they just demand as much money as possible as fast as they can get it...that has turned out to be an absolute and total failure as a bargaining strategy.

So...maybe it's time to focus more on securing our companies' long term finaicial viability (ergo our jobs), than trying...as Fly Deltajets says..."fighting to keep the salaries as close to where they belong as possible."

Where they "belong" is whre the company can afford to pay us and still make at least sometype of profit.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

I seem to remember the DAL MEC was fined for a "job action" in which pilots refused open time. The UAL pilots did the same the but their MEC never "suggested" it and hence were not fined.

This is one for the lawyers.

Enigma, I agree in principle: OT whores during a furlough are slime.

 

[Deltoid]

Goldentrout,

There needs to be a correction here. You said,"Each of these Jet Blue and AirTran just put in an order for 100 jets. Jet blue is buying 90 seat RJs, and AirTran 737s. SWA will add 92 aircraft in the next 30 months according to USA Today

Jet Blue will probably use the 90 seaters east of the Mississippi, and then use their Airbus fleet for transcontinental stuff."

The EMB190 is a 100 seat mid size jet with a 2300nm range. Its not an RJ and our plans are to have this aircraft all over the country, not east of the Mississippi. Rumor has it possibly more carribean and mexico. It will be flown in markets where 100 seat aircraft will fit perfectly and when it builds up the market in a given area then an airbus will be brought in. EMB190 will not do transcon, but it will go pretty far as is. I would not be surprised we do some limited international but not crossing the pond.

Deltoid

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Two points for Golden:

1. If we take a paycut, our competition will do the same to maintain their cost advantage (the only competitive advantage they have as our size, route structure, international presence, ff program, alliances, etc. all dwarf theirs.) When that happens, mgt (and you, it seems) will again come to us for concessions, citing our need to get our costs in line to compete. Where would it end? I feel that the line we have drawn is just as good as any, and I applaud my MEC.

#2. You wrote: You guys ought to be working with management to come up with a plan whereby they can buy and use the planes they need for max profitability, with the understanding that your guys fly them.

For the record, we have already done that. It's called our contract. Delta mgt has the power and the aurtority to buy and use whatever airplane they want, and as many as they want.

 

[goldentrout]

Management can, its true, buy anything they want. But because of the greed of the pilots, they will demand wages too high to make the planes profitable.

We at Comair and ASA have payrates that can allow the ocmpany to buy and operate larger RJs.

Your MEC has scoped them out.

So I guess I need to revise my statement. Management cannot buy and "operate at a profit" any planes they wish, either at mainline or their whooly owneds, because of the main line pilot contracts.

Evidence

1. US Air MEC just denied larger RJs to management. He didn't want them for his own guys, and wouldn't allow them at the wholly owneds. If they were at mainline, they would be staffed at 100% by mainline US Air pilots. Instead, they will be staffed at 50% by US Air furloughees at Mesa pay rates...that's really taking care of your boys...you could be on our mainline list, but instead go fly at the bottom of the Mesa list, because we're too proud to let management have payrates that would make them profitable at mainline.

2. AMR (not ALPA, bu same mindset). Their recent agreement says the mainline guys fly the 70 seat RJs only when it is cost neutral to take them from Eagle. However, the APA obviously deosn't want to have his furloughees fly them at Eagle rates...again, they're too proud, I assume, to "lower their standards." He'd rather have another 1500 guys on furlough.

Finally, you say, which is totally opinion, that the low cost carriers will have to take a paycut if the mainline pilots do. US Air/UAL/AMR pilots have already taken a 25-30% pay cut, and I don't see the management at Jet Blue, AirTran, or SWA begging their pilots for a cut. This is because these pilot groups have worked with management to obtain compensation packages that are respectable, but do not jeopardize the future of the company

Your theory that mainline pay cuts will automatically trigger low cost carrier pay cuts is refuted by the actual, current facts. Jet Blue/AirTran/SWA are going to each buy close to 100 planes each over the next three years...and even after the US Air/AMR/UAL pay cuts, low cost management at those carriers has not said a word about employee concessions.

I don't want to see you guys take concessions. I hope you guys can hold out and things until things turn around.

However, the facts are that DAL employee compensation packages, be it pilots, mechanics, or Flight Attendants, are significantly higher than the other mainline carriers. How will you compete?

With three billion or so in liquid assets and 225,000,000 quarterly losses, it will take what, about three years until DAL goes into bankruptcy court.

Just as all the airline analysts have said...DAL is weak financially like all the other airlines...just not as weak. Their demise is just further down the road.