Mainline scope clauses

[FlyDeltasJets]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that it all goes to ALPA national, and from that, each MEC is given a yearly budget.

Of course, in certain instances, each MEC is allowed to raise more money using a special member assessment.

 

[jarhead]

Do you know, FDJ, how the formula works for getting the money back to the MEC's? Number of Pilots? Payroll of Pilots? Other?

How would National determine how much should/will go back to Dalpa, and how much would go back to ASA and CMR MEC's?

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Scope is DEAD.

Make me laugh how those APA pukes wear those stupid Badges... Even laugh my azz off when this AA hole came asking the jumpseat wearing the scope badge. The CA very 'calm" told him To take that badge off or he wouldnt go.. Couldnt stop Laughing all flight...

That captain sounds like a real horse's ass. Always leave politics out of the jumpseat (unless a scab is involved.)

For any regional pilot who aspires to a mainline job someday (except for most of the pilots at Comair who seem to want to spend a career flying microjets,) scope is your best friend. Without it, your job will be subcontracted to the lowest bidder. It may take a while, but it will eventually happen.

 

[trainerjet]

Re: Re: Question for FDJ

Paco,

You better hope scope is not dead or you too will be replaced. Unless of course you become the lowest bidder.

You should have asked him if he had any extra badges. It seems you need scope just as much as he does.

Some people are just too stupid to know the difference between their a$$ and a hole in the ground, and are simply doomed to whatever miserable life their feeble brain carves out for them.

Trying to explain this to them is a waste of both of your time.

 

[goldentrout]

There is only one valid scope clause.

"All flying done under the colors of airline XYZ will be done by a pilot an the XYZ pilot seniority list."

FLYDELTAJETS says managment will never go for this...has anyone ever seriously asked...with the promise from ALPA that scope will be permanently gone?

Can't imagine that telling management they can buy whatever plane they want whenever they want according to market needs...without having to battle it out with the pilots for months at a time...wouldn't be at least somewhat enticing to management.

The reason management probably does not want this is because they fear the power of the strike of a unified pilot group.

What does that say about the leadership of management and ALPA?

What kind of company can grow and prosper when management and employees are in a perpetual state of conflict?

Look at AirTran, Jet Blue, Frontier, SWA...happy employees...an overhead structure that does not exceed revenue...and guess what, they're buying hundreds of planes and growing!

FOs at those carriers holding a line are making what, 60-80K a year with 15 days off? CAs are well into six figures with half the month off...when does the greed for "max pay to the last day" end?

When does ALPA and the IMA put the long term survival of their companies above the short term financial gain of the privileged few senior employees?

What kind of union sacrifices it's young and the company for the pay and benefits its senior members?

Mainline carriers...overhead hundreds of millions of dollars above revenue...constant accusations and conflict between management and employees...it doesn't take a genius to figure this out.

We need some leaders in management and ALPA who can make tough choices which may not be politically popular, but which will put their companies on the long term road of financial health.

But for both groups...management and ALPA...its all about the money. If that goes on much longer, you just might see AirTran BUY DAL someday. Then what will excuse will the DAL MEC have for his guys as they get stuck on the bottom of the AirTran list like a TWA guy?

 

[Freight Dog]

There is only one valid scope clause.

"All flying done under the colors of airline XYZ will be done by a pilot an the XYZ pilot seniority list."

That sounds very touching and utopian... read below why.

FLYDELTAJETS says managment will never go for this...has anyone ever seriously asked...with the promise from ALPA that scope will be permanently gone?

Imagine you are the big shot management puke, and you could merge the lists. Would you? Would you give up being able to whipsaw one group against the other (DCI) for merging it all together and creating only one powerful group? If you say yes... you live in the dreamworld.

Can't imagine that telling management they can buy whatever plane they want whenever they want according to market needs...without having to battle it out with the pilots for months at a time...wouldn't be at least somewhat enticing to management.

Think Delta management vs. Delta ALPA over B777 payscales.

The reason management probably does not want this is because they fear the power of the strike of a unified pilot group.

What does that say about the leadership of management and ALPA?

What kind of company can grow and prosper when management and employees are in a perpetual state of conflict?

You just answered your own questions from the beginning of your post.

Look at AirTran, Jet Blue, Frontier, SWA...happy employees...an overhead structure that does not exceed revenue...and guess what, they're buying hundreds of planes and growing!

FOs at those carriers holding a line are making what, 60-80K a year with 15 days off? CAs are well into six figures with half the month off...when does the greed for "max pay to the last day" end?

I've been trying to catch a ride on SWA back to Hawaii, but when I was told there were no flights, I went to JetBlue. They laughed at me. I didn't even see Airtran that far west and Frontier was nowhere to be seen. That's just in-country. Sometime this fall, I'm planning on going to Europe. Can I take JetBlue?

When does ALPA and the IMA put the long term survival of their companies above the short term financial gain of the privileged few senior employees?

What kind of union sacrifices it's young and the company for the pay and benefits its senior members?

Look at the concessions many airline groups, not just pilots took everywhere. Some places had to furlough, others didn't.
The answer to your second question... that would have to be referred to the MEC and individual pilots. At Aloha, we're hiring, but we only fly up to 80 hours - no overtime, nothing over 80 hours, it's in our contract, and as a junior guy, I'm way happy about it because it shows that my union cares about its young. On the other hand, look at Hawaiian... those poor saps would fly 125 hours a month if they could while a 1/3 of their pilot group is furloughed. Union is only as strong as its membership.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

FLYDELTAJETS says managment will never go for this...has anyone ever seriously asked...with the promise from ALPA that scope will be permanently gone?

Can't imagine that telling management they can buy whatever plane they want whenever they want according to market needs...without having to battle it out with the pilots for months at a time...wouldn't be at least somewhat enticing to management.

I have said this time and time again: Management can already buy and operate any airplane they want, and as many of them as they want. There would be no fighting with pilots over it, as the rules are already firmly in place.

Why would mgt agree to combining the lists? What possible benefit would it give them? They have nothing to gain from it, and would lose their ability to outsource flying to cheaper labor. While I would like to see it, I am rational enough to know that it is a pipe dream. In the meantime, I support more realistic measures.


P.S.
It ain't about "max pay to the last day." It is about fighting to keep the salaries as close to where they belong as possible. What many forget is that the only reason that the salaries at the carriers you mentioned are respectable is that they are based on undercutting their competition. If the salaries fall at the competition, you can bet theirs will fall as well. In short, more people should be cheering any pilot group that fights for high pay, rather than criticizing them for it. We are all affected.

P.P.S.
I'm trying to limit my time on these boards, so I will probably allow you the last word (or at least I'll try!)

 

[enigma]

I've given up dreaming about things such as effective scope, one lists, etc; but I haven't given up dreaming about being represented by a union that represents all of its members.

On page one of this thread, the discussion digressed away to the subject of ALPA nationals input into contracts. ALPA national may not dictate exact terms in a TA, but they most certainly have the ability to demand redaction of items to which they disagree.

Even more bothersome to me is nationals control over MEC's during normal times. At Spirit, we have pilots on furlough, our contract does allow for JA, but we are not under a mandatory OT clause; there is/was a grassroots movement to request that our MEC take a stand against flying the picking up of OT. The bottom line is that our MEC (in my opinion) would like to stop our members from flying excessive OT, or at least recommend against picking up OT; but NATIONAL WILL NOT ALLOW THE MEC TO MAKE THE NO OVERTIME REQUEST. National is apparently scared that the compay will file suit against us for an illegal work action. ..........I say, so what, let them file the suit, and let ALPA beat the charges. There is nothing illegal about cessation of OT when OT is totally voluntary, but national would rather let our furloughees starve than they would fight for them. If national would but out, we might be able to gain an improvement. But NO, they won't even let us try.

In case anyone wants to know, we also have a contractual agreement with management that provides for adequate staffing. At the present, managment is relying upon OT ho's and is ignoring the adequate staffing language. I would think that ALPA would want to file suit against the company for breach of contract on that count, but no they're chicken.

One more point, precendent that would uphold an official "no OT" policy has been set. Yet national will still not allow the official recommendation.

Ironically, I was never a "union man", but when I was hired by a union carrier I decided to make the best of it and get with the program. It is quite sad to realize that the strongest proponents of true solidarity are people like myself, while the union officers seem only to be interested in maintaining status quo, and pay for the top half of the seniority list (or for the legacy carriers).

regards,
enigma

 

[stillaboo]

The bottom line is that our MEC (in my opinion) would like to stop our members from flying excessive OT, or at least recommend against picking up OT; but NATIONAL WILL NOT ALLOW THE MEC TO MAKE THE NO OVERTIME REQUEST.

If there was true unity at your carrier, you wouldn't need the MEC to decree this officially, all you'd have to do is spread the word "don't take OT until we have everyone off furlough".

There was a carrier that had OT being paid at a normal pay rate until they exceeded 70 hours (a loophole I guess the MEC missed). The word spread, OT wasn't to be taken by anyone and flights will be cancelled until the situation is resolved.
After 2-3 months, many cancellations, and poor performance #'s posted to investors, the situation was resolved.

The team is only as strong as its weakest link.

-Boo!

 

[Ben Dover]

It doesn't sound like ALPA negotiates the pilot's contracts so what the heck are they for?

Ralph,
Here's my take on the situation. Ever heard how a huge forest fire can actually develop it's own weather system? Raging out of control, intensifying as it grows? Well ALPA is a similar beast. Though it may have started with pure motives and has accomplished many good things, today ALPAs mission is to gain power, influence, and money, thereby insuring it's own existence in the future. Do you think the upper echelon's of ALPA enjoy their status any less than DAL, CAL, or UAL management? No.

Now the answer to the rest of your question. Why doesn't ALPA effectively represent the regional pilot? Because ALPA made a wrong turn many years ago by deciding to let only the heavy hitters (mainline) into the "pilot club." Sure, small fish were allowed to join ALPA, but who better to guard the hen house than the fox? Now that the small fish have grown and the lines between mainline and regional are blurred, ALPA is struggling to figure things out. They can't back peddle and all of the sudden embrace the regional pilot because it would anger their primary customer and source of revenue, the mainline pilot. But they can't ignore the regional pilot either because we keep chipping away at their job base.

Just the way I see it,
BD

 

[trainerjet]

But they can't ignore the regional pilot either because we keep chipping away at their job base.

And evidently, will delightfully continue to do so, no matter what the cost, until there is no "job base" left.

 

[enigma]

If there was true unity at your carrier, you wouldn't need the MEC to decree this officially, all you'd have to do is spread the word "don't take OT until we have everyone off furlough".

True, but some of the OT hogs are on the record as committing to stop if the MEC would take a stand. It's a matter of leadership, and even though some of the MEC would like to say "no OT" they are not allowed by national.

regards,
enigma

 

[PCL_128]

True, but some of the OT hogs are on the record as committing to stop if the MEC would take a stand. It's a matter of leadership, and even though some of the MEC would like to say "no OT" they are not allowed by national.

That's because National is smarter than you give them credit for. Despite your thinking that it would be an open-and-shut case, an MEC making an official statement about not picking up open time would leave ALPA open to a very costly lawsuit. Any sort of work slow-down can be considered an illegal work action unless you have been released by the NMB.

It is possible that ALPA would win the case, but I wouldn't want ALPA to risk the dollars to find out. There are much better uses of dues money than fighting another lawsuit.

All of the guys claiming that they are just looking for leadership from the MEC are most likely just passing the buck anyway. This is just their excuse. They want to pick up the open time, so they are going to whether the MEC makes a statement on it or not. As Stillaboo said, if these guys had any balls or integrity they would not be picking up the open time anyway. If the MEC came out with a statement, they would just find another excuse to pick up the OT. Some people just have no respect for their fellow pilots.

 

[stillaboo]

As Stillaboo said, if these guys had any balls or integrity they would not be picking up the open time anyway.

I don't think what I said was that hostile, but you've captured the spirt of it nicely.

-Boo!

 

[goldentrout]

Freight Dog says

"I've been trying to catch a ride on SWA back to Hawaii, but when I was told there were no flights, I went to JetBlue. They laughed at me. I didn't even see Airtran that far west and Frontier was nowhere to be seen. That's just in-country. Sometime this fall, I'm planning on going to Europe. Can I take JetBlue?"

Each of these Jet Blue and AirTran just put in an order for 100 jets. Jet blue is buying 90 seat RJs, and AirTran 737s. SWA will add 92 aircraft in the next 30 months according to USA Today

Jet Blue will probably use the 90 seaters east of the Mississippi, and then use their Airbus fleet for transcontinental stuff.

AirTran will use their 717s east of Mississippi, and their 737s transcontinental.

Just wait...you'll be seeing blue and green and brown tails all over this country in the next few years.

It may be five years or so, but you'll eventually see the low cost carriers move internationally. It's just a business eventuality.

The low cost carriers have seen they can provide pretty much the same service as the big mainline carriers, with significantly less overhead, keep their employees happy with respectable (but not outrageous) salaries, and make money.

It's just a matter of time before this same business model begins to compete with the big carriers internationally.

I'll also go out on a limb and say that in 5-10 years one of the big carriers will be bought by Jet Blue or AirTran. I'd say US Air is the likely candidate, since they are competition on the east coast.

AirTran has apparently decided to go head to head with DAL out of ATL. I was in ATl last Sunday and it was packed. If ATL is full of pax and DAL is still losing hundreds of millions a quarter, there is no way DAL will be able to compete with AirTran by undercutting thier ticket prices as they would have done in better times.

It continually amazes me that some refuse to see profound changes the low cost carriers have and will continue to cause int he airline industry.

An airline ticket is now a commodity. The consumer will buy the lowest price commodity that satisfys his/her needs. With new planes and satelite TV in many of the "low cost" carriers'aircraft, it will be hard (if not impossible) for DAL/UAL/NWA/AMR to sell themselves as a "better product."

 

[goldentrout]

FlyDeltaJets says

"P.S.
It ain't about "max pay to the last day." It is about fighting to keep the salaries as close to where they belong as possible. What many forget is that the only reason that the salaries at the carriers you mentioned are respectable is that they are based on undercutting their competition. If the salaries fall at the competition, you can bet theirs will fall as well. In short, more people should be cheering any pilot group that fights for high pay, rather than criticizing them for it. We are all affected."

If your union had long ago been more worried about the long term financial viability of the company, than getting salaries "where they belong," you guys may not be facing the reductions you are looking today.

This is exactly where the union has its head in the sand...just because us pilots and mechanics FEEL our skills are worth 200k/yr doesn't mean that the airline market will provide revenue to pay us that kind of money.

I'm all for you guys getting as much pay as possible. I hope you get more planes and routes, even if you replace one of our 70 seaters with a mad dog. When a DAL route gets more pax and a bigger plane, that's good for all of us. I hope mainline grows as much as possible, because that will translate into good things for all in DAL

See, that's the difference between you and me. When I look at contract talks, while I want to get a respectable salary, my prime concern is that we don't put the company in bankruptcy.

You guys ought to be working with management to come up with a plan whereby they can buy and use the planes they need for max profitability, with the understanding that your guys fly them.

Instead, as you stated, your primary concern is "fighting to keep the salaries as close to where they belong as possible." There's not much difference between "max pay to the last day" and "max pay as long as possible."

Your MEC had to know (as did the MECs at NWA/UAL/AMR/US Air) that there was no way over even the course of their contracts that the revenue bubble of the mid to late 1990s was sustainable...yet they based your contracts on that revenue model.

Ultimately, though, managment is to blame because they signed their names to their own death warrants.

 

[Otto_Pilot]

"See, that's the difference between you and me. When I look at contract talks, while I want to get a respectable salary, my prime concern is that we don't put the company in bankruptcy."

That is a very respectable position to take and I admire you for taking it.

However...

We are not management. We're coal miners who punch a clock to go to work and punch a clock to go home. We generate a product for management. Our product is revenue passenger miles and we create it by the safe and skillful use of heavy machinery.

We are not white-collar workers no matter how much you want us to be.

As such, when we enter into contract talks we do so with the understanding that we will ask for the moon, and the company will ask for the dirt.

We will fight to get as much as possible -- and it is up to the company to determine exactly what they can afford to pay.

Our negotiating practice is pure supply and demand. We look around the industry and determine our value based upon our peers. We have a skill-set that can not be easily, quickly, or inexpensively replaced. Our skills have value.

Now since the pilot "brotherhood" is a load of cr@p -- we're all engaged in this race to the bottom. We're all willing to do each others jobs cheaper than our buddy because we all want more flying, bigger airplanes, bigger paychecks.

ALPA's motto: "I got mine. Screw you." is more true today than at any time in its history.

So yes, I admire you for working towards the health of your company. We all want our companies to do well -- however, dont do management's job for them. It's THEIR job to tell us that we make too much money --- not yours.

 

[goldentrout]

Otto Pilot

Being a big market person myself, I'll concede the fact that pilots' benefit requests are simply the supply side of the equation.

If you read the last part of my post, it said management is ultimatley responsible for their own death warrrant

However, the way I view the history of ALPA bargaining is as follows.

We, the MEC (read senior guys), will get as much as we can in the shortest time possible. If that means that hundreds or even thousands of pilots get laid off every 5-10 years due to economic cycles...them's is the breaks...we have to "preserve" the profession.

This policy has led to bankruptcy at UAL/US Air and almost at AMR. NWA nd DAL are certainly looking at 20-25% pay cuts, not to mention 1500-2000 pilots on furlough, if not more.

Pilots are smart people, and the MECs have been around long enough to understand the game.

If management is too stupid or too gutless to tell us to take a hike when we demand outrageous benefits, then our MECs need to do the right thing and ensure the viability of the company themselves. Instead, they just demand as much money as possible as fast as they can get it...that has turned out to be an absolute and total failure as a bargaining strategy.

So...maybe it's time to focus more on securing our companies' long term finaicial viability (ergo our jobs), than trying...as Fly Deltajets says..."fighting to keep the salaries as close to where they belong as possible."

Where they "belong" is whre the company can afford to pay us and still make at least sometype of profit.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

I seem to remember the DAL MEC was fined for a "job action" in which pilots refused open time. The UAL pilots did the same the but their MEC never "suggested" it and hence were not fined.

This is one for the lawyers.

Enigma, I agree in principle: OT whores during a furlough are slime.

 

[Deltoid]

Goldentrout,

There needs to be a correction here. You said,"Each of these Jet Blue and AirTran just put in an order for 100 jets. Jet blue is buying 90 seat RJs, and AirTran 737s. SWA will add 92 aircraft in the next 30 months according to USA Today

Jet Blue will probably use the 90 seaters east of the Mississippi, and then use their Airbus fleet for transcontinental stuff."

The EMB190 is a 100 seat mid size jet with a 2300nm range. Its not an RJ and our plans are to have this aircraft all over the country, not east of the Mississippi. Rumor has it possibly more carribean and mexico. It will be flown in markets where 100 seat aircraft will fit perfectly and when it builds up the market in a given area then an airbus will be brought in. EMB190 will not do transcon, but it will go pretty far as is. I would not be surprised we do some limited international but not crossing the pond.

Deltoid