Madison newspaper editorial response

[likeitis]

Here is a link to their editorial about the crew that delayed a flight on dec. 24. because a guy made a remark about drinking. There is a link to reply so have at it.


http://www.madison.com/captimes/opinion/editorial/39691.php

 

[crosscut]

d-a-m-n if you do, d-a-m-n if you don't

 

[toneal]

well said crosscut.

 

[ifly4food]

The pilot's response should have been, "Not until I'm done flying." Or, if the pilot was particularly prissy, he could have said, "No, I have not been drinking." He could even have challenged Wiese by saying, "Sir, are you implying that you think I am not sober?" - to which Wiese, who by all accounts was merely having some holiday fun, would have replied, "Of course not."

These pilots did exactly the right thing. Once a passenger makes an accusation, you must prove your innocence. Just responding to the passenger doesn't prove you're sober when the company gets a letter a month later.

Our union has advised us that this is EXACTLY what we should do in such a situation. They will support you if you take this action and are subjected to discipline by your company.

I have emailed the editor of this newspaper spelling out my disappointment with his comments and explaining our position. I urge you and all ALPA mambers to do the same. Forward this link to everyone you know:
[email protected]

 

[Typhoon1244]

I just sent in my letter to this "editor." What a moron! (I was polite, but it wasn't easy.)

Steven Wiese, if you're out there, I hope you've learned you lesson, idiot! People don't joke about terrorists and bombs when they're flying. What makes anyone think pilot sobriety is any more appropriate?

Good god, that p_ssed me off! I need a shower...

 

[FL000]

I agree completely with the columnist. The pilot was accused of nothing. The passenger made a stupid remark which should have been met with an eye roll, or at worst a private lecture about how his remarks could be construed and dealt with. And anyone who compares this to a remark about a bomb is being unrealistic.

What are you going to do when a passenger walks by the cockpit and says, "I hope you don't have this flu that's going around."? Are you going to call your AME and have him come down for an immediate checkup because your physical condition has been challenged?

 

[mar]

"The pilot's power trip"

Yeah, all doctors have a god complex and all pilots have a power trip.

Freight is good. Passengers are a pain in the bum.

In a former life, when I used to fly the "freight that loaded and unloaded themselves," I had a passenger, on a fuel stop, tell me there was a hydraulic leak on the left engine nacelle.

This was on a Metro and the HYD resevoir happens to be in the left nacelle. Apparently he wasn't too concerned in flight because he waited until we were on the ground to say something.

I let him know that I'd take a look (no sign of leak *anywhere* and the quantity in the resevoir is *full*).

After we get the fuel and everyone had their potty break, we start to board again. I find the guy and let him know that the hydraulics are in perfect shape as far as I'm concerned. I suggest that perhaps he saw a reflection on the aluminum.

Nah. Impossible, he says. It was fluid he saw and it was red.

No leak. We're going flying. If you want to come with us you're more than welcome.

He gives me the raised eyebrow and the sideways glance like he doesn't appreciate how little I respect the preciousness of life *AND THEN HE GETS ON BOARD AN AIRPLANE HE DOESN'T FEEL IS AIRWORTHY*.

Well now I'm in a fine mess. All I want to do is complete the flight so I can go home but I'm wondering...Should I have called a mechanic...What is this guy's background--maybe he's a retired Fed...He got on the airplane anyway, maybe I shouldn't take him seriously...

It's all a little too much when bored people want to jump in and stir the pot. Just let me do my job.

 

[MetroSheriff]

I think prudence (in this case read laziness) would dictate removing yourself from the trip ONLY if you are in domicile.

If you are at an outstation it would cause a major pain in the a$$ and result in not getting home on time. At $1.50 an hour per diem while away from base, I prefer to be inconvenienced and delayed as little as possible.

Now if the company provides block time pay for alcohol related delays (provided you are clean) I see no problem with delaying the flight as long as it takes.

 

[crosscut]

I agree completely with the columnist. The pilot was accused of nothing. The passenger made a stupid remark which should have been met with an eye roll, or at worst a private lecture about how his remarks could be construed and dealt with. And anyone who compares this to a remark about a bomb is being unrealistic.

What are you going to do when a passenger walks by the cockpit and says, "I hope you don't have this flu that's going around."? Are you going to call your AME and have him come down for an immediate checkup because your physical condition has been challenged?

1. The pilot was accused of being drunk. This career is too sensitive/precious (as is the industry) for someone not to take any such remark seriously.

2. Passenger's stupid remark was met with a stupid response - JAIL.

3. Flu isn't incriminating, alcohol - is. Physical fitness to fly is relative and doesn't have the definitive guideline that alcohol does (0.04). (Let's pretend one DID fly with a flu - he won't lose his job over it - unlike being drunk, just ask Gary Shroeder).

4. At the end, who is laughing at his joke? Everyone but Mr. Weise. NOW, THAT'S FUNNY. ANY MORE JOKESTERS?

 

[throttlejockey]

While I can understand why the Capt. made the decision he made, I do not agree with it.

1) Voluntarily submitting to a sobriety test, may eventually lead to mandatory sobriety tests each and everytime we fly. If we as a group do not stand up and quit acting like "victims", eventually these types of people will put us in our place and we will become victims. Prove our "innocence" is a bunch of b.s. Screw them. I will NEVER EVER submit to a voluntary sobriety test.

2) Why inconvience every other passenger (including passengers at the other end that are going to get on that plane later) and cost the company tons of money? Just, so that you can "prove your point?" That shows a lack of maturity and professionalism.

3) The best thing that this capt. could have said was the following:

"Sir, if you have reason to believe that I am not sober, may I suggest that you take the next flight. Our customer service agents will be happy to assist you."

Be polite, say it with a smile, but be firm. If they want to insist on moving this discussion to the next level, radio for the station manager or lead agent and have them handle it. I do not have time to be dealling with this kind of petty b.s.

throttle

 

[tarp]

FLy4 food:

Thanks for responding to the editorial. I cannot since our company policy dictates what I have to do when publicly accused of being drunk and prevents me from communicating with the media about the company.

Yes, it's all in my FAA approved Flight Operations Manual. For ACA, the carrrier in question, it states:

------------

H. Passenger Accusation of Crew Intoxication

If a passenger or other person makes a public comment about a crewmember or dispatcher being drunk or on drugs, the company will immediately pull them off the schedule (with pay) to be tested. By immediately conducting the proper tests, there can be no doubt about the integrity of the individual or the company's concern for the safety of our operations.

a.) If a flight crew preparing to fly is accused:

1.) The captain will immediately contact the Operations Center who will take control of planning how to handle the passengers and the flight.

2.) Customer Service will make all decisions regarding passenger status.

-----------

Now for anybody who thinks we are on a power trip - think again. This is my Flight Operations Manual, signed and sanctioned by the FAA. We even asked in class about the word "public" and it was determined if the passenger makes the accusation in a voice that can be overheard by anyone other than the crew members, then the person has made a "public" statement.

I have absolutely no "wiggle room" in this, no discretion, no power trips. A customer accuses in a voice that can be heard by any other passenger and the game is over. No joking. No BS.

If any lawyers are out there, this page 6-10-4 of our manual, Revision 19 dated January 1, 2002 and the manual is signed by Nicholas Sabatini of the Eastern Region Flight Standards Division of the FAA.

 

[ifly4food]

Tarp:
Very nice. I wish we had that kind of support in writing from our company. Was that you up in MSN?

Throttlejockey:

The best thing that this capt. could have said was the following:

"Sir, if you have reason to believe that I am not sober, may I suggest that you take the next flight. Our customer service agents will be happy to assist you."

And when that passenger and the others who witnessed the incident contact your company to say a drunk pilot flew the flight what will you do? Once the flight is completed you can't prove your were sober at takeoff.

Are you willing to bet your career that the passenger was only joking?

 

[JJJ]

I don't think there is an airline out there that would punish a pilot for refusing to fly until (s)he got an alcohol test following an accusation.

It is the right thing to do. If you're the capt, you're the boss. The airplane doesn't leave until you say it leaves. Safety first, right? I would call this safety.

 

[bobbysamd]

Drunkeness column

The columnist did a poor job of reporting her story. She apparently called the airline, but should have reported fully on its inebriated pilot policy. If its manual stated anything similar to the policies the others have stated above, then there is no news story. Was the airline Comair?

Mr. Wiese was a moron and douchebag to say what he said. It was tantamount to making hijacking and terrorist cracks. I dunno if the charges were overkill, although it's too bad that there aren't criminal or federal charges for being stupid.

 

[TWA Dude]

Re: Drunkeness column

I've twice had a passenger make a flippant comment about my sobriety. Once was on an escalator in the terminal. I simply told her that we don't joke about that kind of thing and that it could result in her flight being cancelled. She understood and was completely apologetic and since I don't believe anybody else around heard thus ended the story. On another occasion a pax stuck his head into the cockpit during boarding, made a remark, then quickly pulled away. The captain shouted "Get back here!", which he did. The captain sternly lectured him about the consequences of his remark and he was practically in tears of regret. As far as we know no other pax heard so the captain accepted his apology and off we went.

As we all know despite what is explicitly written in FARs and company manuals the pilot on the line must use his discretion to do what makes the most sense. To me that means that a flippant comment from a pax need not mean an automatic trip to get tested. I can't access the Madison article in question but from what I understand of the incident I think it could've been handled on the scene. That's not to say I find fault in the captain's decision, just that another captain might've reacted differently and I think that's okay. Pilots make important judgements on every flight about what's safe and what's prudent and this is just another one to deal with.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Drunkeness column

Mr. Wiese was a moron and douchebag to say what he said.

Hey! You copied my letter to the editor! No fair!

Seriously, in my letter, I did tell the woman that she should stick to topics she's willing to research. Lucky for her, the media is not held accountable for garbage like this.

A few years back, Fox-4 News in Dallas did a big story about a SunJet flight that was six hours late because of a mechanical problem. They focused on one guy who was trying to get to California to see his dying mother...she died while he was sitting in the terminal at DFW.

The problem with the story was that it wasn't a SunJet flight, it was a Spirit flight. SunJet tried to get Fox-4 to run a correction...they never did.

 

[lookup]

Mr. Wiese was a moron and douchebag to say what he said. It was tantamount to making hijacking and terrorist cracks. I dunno if the charges were overkill, although it's too bad that there aren't criminal or federal charges for being stupid.

Uh, there aren't enough jails/prisons to handle the traffic load. Now if it were a misdemeanor with say a $50 fine, that would be a great way to pay off our national debt in say.... two weeks

 

[darling pretty]

Bobby-- not Comair, ACA. The editor doesn't have the decency to correct their error

 

[Dieterly]

TWA DUDE...

Great Post!!! At least some common sense.

 

[FL000]

1. The pilot was accused of being drunk. This career is too sensitive/precious (as is the industry) for someone not to take any such remark seriously.

2. Passenger's stupid remark was met with a stupid response - JAIL.

3. Flu isn't incriminating, alcohol - is. Physical fitness to fly is relative and doesn't have the definitive guideline that alcohol does (0.04). (Let's pretend one DID fly with a flu - he won't lose his job over it - unlike being drunk, just ask Gary Shroeder).

4. At the end, who is laughing at his joke? Everyone but Mr. Weise. NOW, THAT'S FUNNY. ANY MORE JOKESTERS?

1. No, he wasn't. Please tell me you know the difference between an ill-timed joke and a formal accusation. Dissect the sentence in question and show me the accusation. It ain't there.

2. I couldn't have said it better myself. While I hesitate to question how any other captain runs his cockpit, I can say that I personally would not have elevated the passenger's stupid comment to a criminal level. However, if the comment is directed at the first officer and s/he wants to go pee in a bottle, I have no problem with that and would not stand in the way. That would be between the F/O and the CP.

3. I'm speaking of certificate action. In that regard, the two conditions are more equivalent than you perceive. And speaking of criminal, what about innocent until proven guilty? If I have not been drinking, what do I have to worry about? Nothing, that's what.

4. You been watching "Full Metal Jacket" or something? Geez...lighten up.