Lufthansa Pilots = Miserable Failure

Joined
Apr 15, 2004
Posts
4,872
Total Time
4
They just relieved scope from 70 seats to 95, and accepted a pay cut.

Be sure to thank them!


http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-...25-704835.html


FRANKFURT (Dow Jones)--Deutsche Lufthansa AG (LHA.XE) said Friday staff costs will be reduced under the agreement reached with a pilots' union after a protracted labor dispute, while strategic flexibility will be left to management.

"We particularly value the concessions [pilots' union] Vereinigung Cockpit made in the wage area, which is an important contribution to lowering Lufthansa's costs in a sustainable way," said Roland Busch, negotiator and chief financial officer at Lufthansa's passenger operations.

Busch said he is content with the deal. "Like always in mediation, both parties had to make concessions," he said. The deal will require a lot from Lufthansa, but it also gives the company a high level of reliability, he added.

Late Thursday, Lufthansa and VC said they accepted a mediator's proposal, ending their labor dispute. They agreed to a pay freeze until March 2011, and the deal also protects jobs and assures the union's input in growth plans for the German airline.

Lufthansa said the scope clause for regional units will be extended to 95 seats from 70. This means all aircraft with a seating capacity of 95 or less can be deployed at Lufthansa's regional subsidiaries.


-By Kirsten Bienk and Hilde Arends, Dow Jones Newswires; +49 69 29 725 506; kirsten.bienk@dowjones.com, hilde.arends@dowjones.com
 

Full of LUV

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 4, 2002
Posts
1,021
Total Time
5100
They just relieved scope from 70 seats to 95, and accepted a pay cut.

Be sure to thank them!
Sounds like their boomer generation isn't ready to hang it up yet either..... Between age 65 and the relaxation of scope over the last decade, it is more of a generational thing and less of a company thing. Mgmt knows they can exploit the current drivers at the expense of the profession as a whole... unfortunately, probably more to come.....
 

johnsonrod

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Posts
4,218
Total Time
8000+
Here is an explanation from a Lufthansa pilot on PPRUNE named Studi

Scope was not given away, it was redefined and especially clarified. The new agreement is now in writing considered a collective negotiated contract, which continues to be valid once quitted by one party. So far it was unclear what would happen when management quits the agreement.

In traffic within Germany and to/from Germany, the new agreement is more restrictive and more clear, there is much less room for interpretation.

Subsidiaries (e.g. Swiss, BMI, etc.) can now only fly 55% of all traffic to/from Germany and no traffic from Germany to a third country. This is a new regulation.

LH Italy can hire own pilots, but DLH selection (DLR) has to be followed. LHI can not fly to Germany.

Scope now starts clearly at 95 seat, no exceptions anymore, while so far it started at 70 seats (but a lot of exceptions and circumnavigation set-ups were possible).

Scope becomes dynamic, as soon as DLH-mainline has more than 330 A/C. At that point, LH can fly the 21% smallest planes outside of scope (with the current regime with all the exceptions, a little bit more than 21% of all planes fly outside scope).

This is a good solution since DLH argued that the regional sector has to be able to use bigger planes, that you can not make money with 50 seaters anymore.

They can now have this, as long as there is growth. In other words, the regional sector can grow in plane size, as long as there is growth overall, but it can not substitute mainline. Standards in the dynamic regional sector have been defined to be according to CLH.

Should it have been a tactical argument about using bigger planes in the regional segment, and 50 seaters suddenly will again being used, they will just reach 21% with planes smaller than 95 seats, so again, scope has been redefined and strengthened.

Additionally, a lot of pilots who entered the scoped career system via subsidiaries will now get the full DLH pension and LoL system.

The price is no inflationary salary increases until 2011 and 2 h more per month until overtime kicks in within mainline.

Summarised: the tow big hubs (FRA & MUC), where the money is made, and which have potential for real growth (by building new runways) have been scoped stronger than before.
 

nwaredtail

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 5, 2005
Posts
622
Total Time
9000+
Scope was not given away, it was redefined and especially clarified. The new agreement is now in writing considered a collective negotiated contract, which continues to be valid once quitted by one party. So far it was unclear what would happen when management quits the agreement.

In traffic within Germany and to/from Germany, the new agreement is more restrictive and more clear, there is much less room for interpretation.

Subsidiaries (e.g. Swiss, BMI, etc.) can now only fly 55% of all traffic to/from Germany and no traffic from Germany to a third country. This is a new regulation.

LH Italy can hire own pilots, but DLH selection (DLR) has to be followed. LHI can not fly to Germany.

Scope now starts clearly at 95 seat, no exceptions anymore, while so far it started at 70 seats (but a lot of exceptions and circumnavigation set-ups were possible).

Scope becomes dynamic, as soon as DLH-mainline has more than 330 A/C. At that point, LH can fly the 21% smallest planes outside of scope (with the current regime with all the exceptions, a little bit more than 21% of all planes fly outside scope).

This is a good solution since DLH argued that the regional sector has to be able to use bigger planes, that you can not make money with 50 seaters anymore.

They can now have this, as long as there is growth. In other words, the regional sector can grow in plane size, as long as there is growth overall, but it can not substitute mainline. Standards in the dynamic regional sector have been defined to be according to CLH.

Should it have been a tactical argument about using bigger planes in the regional segment, and 50 seaters suddenly will again being used, they will just reach 21% with planes smaller than 95 seats, so again, scope has been redefined and strengthened.

Additionally, a lot of pilots who entered the scoped career system via subsidiaries will now get the full DLH pension and LoL system.

The price is no inflationary salary increases until 2011 and 2 h more per month until overtime kicks in within mainline.

Summarised: the tow big hubs (FRA & MUC), where the money is made, and which have potential for real growth (by building new runways) have been scoped stronger than before.
Probably written by a senior guy working on the sales job to the membership. "we don't think Compass will take any DC-9/airbus flying"......
 

General Lee

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 24, 2002
Posts
20,442
Total Time
A lot
...........
I love your answer above. Maybe you should ask someone who is involved in it (like a Lufthansa pilot---try PPRUNE next time), before calling them a miserable failure.

Lufthansa has had 95 seat E190s flying at Augsburg, Air Dolomiti, and Cityline for a couple years now, along with Avro-85s flying into London City and other European cities. They have a very complex structure over there, along with Lufthansa subsidiaries (BMI, Swiss Air, Austrain, etc) that all could be used to compete against mainline Lufthansa at any moment, until this new agreement was made. Doesn't sound like the best result, but it would be hard to criticize their decision WITHOUT really knowing what is going on there. Obviously you fell for that. Don't only use a WSJ article as your only source next time. You will continue to look dumb.


Bye Bye---General Lee
 
Last edited:

WSurf

The Smack Down!
Joined
Apr 26, 2002
Posts
3,690
Total Time
6500
And please remember that this was the same pilot group that did 5 day strikes to protest the outsourcing of there flying! They know what there doing don't worry.

Don't for get the saying! "There are Airlines Pilots, Then there's Lufthansa Pilots"
 

bigsky

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2002
Posts
375
Total Time
11500
Yeah lucky for them they are still in the Game! I think the US has a descent team for the US... not like we are given a soccer ball at birth like most of the other countries.
I almost responded earlier about the scope... The German pilot group is stronger than most and kind of felt it was too early to judge without knowing the whole deal
 
Joined
Apr 15, 2004
Posts
4,872
Total Time
4
I love your answer above. Maybe you should ask someone who is involved in it (like a Lufthansa pilot---try PPRUNE next time), before calling them a miserable failure.

Lufthansa has had 95 seat E190s flying at Augsburg, Air Dolomiti, and Cityline for a couple years now, along with Avro-85s flying into London City and other European cities. They have a very complex structure over there, along with Lufthansa subsidiaries (BMI, Swiss Air, Austrain, etc) that all could be used to compete against mainline Lufthansa at any moment, until this new agreement was made. Doesn't sound like the best result, but it would be hard to criticize their decision WITHOUT really knowing what is going on there. Obviously you fell for that. Don't only use a WSJ article as your only source next time. You will continue to look dumb.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Hey it got your attention, did it not?


Bye bye,

;)
 

Draginass

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
1,852
Total Time
5000+
I love your answer above. Maybe you should ask someone who is involved in it (like a Lufthansa pilot---try PPRUNE next time), before calling them a miserable failure.

Lufthansa has had 95 seat E190s flying at Augsburg, Air Dolomiti, and Cityline for a couple years now, along with Avro-85s flying into London City and other European cities. They have a very complex structure over there, along with Lufthansa subsidiaries (BMI, Swiss Air, Austrain, etc) that all could be used to compete against mainline Lufthansa at any moment, until this new agreement was made. Doesn't sound like the best result, but it would be hard to criticize their decision WITHOUT really knowing what is going on there. Obviously you fell for that. Don't only use a WSJ article as your only source next time. You will continue to look dumb.


Bye Bye---General Lee
This from a DALPA pilot, the sellers-out of the profession, with one of the crappiest scope provisions among US carriers.
 
Top