Lt Bush's direct comission

[JimNtexas]

You're mistaken Cliff. I've looked at the actual documents carefully. Lt Bush has documentation in the form of signed OERs for his training during the year that the Bush haters wish he'd been AWOL.

 

[Spur]

Cliff
GRB
Air Medal, Iraq War I

Is that some kind of new duty title??? Or do you think for some reason we would give any more credence to your insane ideas because you were a copilot in Desert Storm and your AC managed to get you to show up for 20 missions.

 

[scarface]

In reference to Bush's alleged AWOL of approximately one year,I would think some logged F102 time during the disputed period would put the matter to rest.
As to the statement that those who missed their drills for a year were put into the draft lottery, I know that the Marine Corps, and I assume they reflected DOD policy, cut you a set of active duty orders if you owed them time.
There were some Air Force and Navy aviation reserve units called up during Vietnam during the Pueblo crisis. I believe some of those units were Air National Guard.
I served in Vietnam as a Marine Corps helicopter pilot and if I had been offered an opportunity to fly F anythings in the Reserve/Guard I'd have jumped on it My experiences in the military were quite ordinary but I don't think I had a draft evader mentality; I just didn't know about the program and thus didn't apply for it.

 

[Singlecoil]

You're mistaken Cliff. I've looked at the actual documents carefully. Lt Bush has documentation in the form of signed OERs for his training during the year that the Bush haters wish he'd been AWOL.

Can you provide a link to those? I've seen the ones that say he failed to complete his physical in August '72 and was grounded in Texas. Then he was assigned to duty in Alabama, where coincidentally he was working on a campaign for a friend of the family. Bush supporters have yet to find anyone who saw him perform any duty in Alabama, or any additional duty in Texas after that suspension. His medical records are sealed, so we don't know if he didn't take the physical or flunked it for some reason.

 

[Singlecoil]

Re: Re: Ejection Seat Qualifed

True... Not that it's a fun ride but his father didn't have the "luxury" of an ejection seat.

Especially unfortunate for the two guys in his airplane that day who were killed in action. Bush received the Distinguished Flying Cross for that mission.

 

[JimNtexas]

Singlecoil, I could give you the links, but I won't because I know from past experience that irrational people like you will carrry this smear to your grave.

You are the acuser. The burden of proof is on you. You claim that Lt Bush was "AWOL". That's a serious charge, and a serious person would not make it without substantial evidence.

You show me some proof of any adverse action taken by the Air Guard against Lt Bush.

There are no documented adverse actions, as you well know. Instead there are OERs and an honorable discharge that certify satisfactory service.

Well, maybe you should go to Dallas and look in the trash cans around the grassy knoll. You might find something there, if the UFOs didn't get it first.

 

[ShawnC]

If Kerry is nominated to run against Bush, I will vote for Kerry because he is a war hero, and not a draft-dodging rich kid.

Cliff
GRB
Air Medal, Iraq War I

Oh yes Kerry the war hero that threw his Medals back at the Capitol... oh wait he didn't he threw someone elses medals and his ribbons because he was too proud of the ones he earned.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Apparently, the "Boston Globe" was the media outlet that did the most investigating of Bush's military service, or lack thereof.

Here is a short synopsis of the situation from salon.com:

"Trail Mix: Did Bush go AWOL on Guard?

Rick Lazio's running start leaves Hillary Clinton at a loss for a target and voters cautiously optimistic.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Alicia Montgomery

May 25, 2000 | George W. Bush didn't just dodge duty in Vietnam, he apparently skipped out on his stint in the National Guard as well.

The Boston Globe reports a one-year gap in Bush's military records after he went to work for a political campaign in Alabama in May of 1972. Though Bush promised to continue his service while stationed in that state, there is no evidence that he ever showed up for Alabama Guard duty.

"Had he reported in, I would have had some recall, and I do not," said retired Gen. William Turnipseed, who commanded the Alabama unit at the time Bush claims to have served. "I had been in Texas, done my flight training there. If we had a first lieutenant from Texas, I would have remembered."

Furthermore, Texas National Guard records indicate that Bush failed to return to service there even after the Alabama campaign ended in November 1972.

Bush, however, insists that his military service is complete. The candidate told the Associated Press, "I served my full obligation with the Texas National Guard. That's why I was honorably discharged."
http://archive.salon.com/politics2000/feature/2000/05/24/guard/

Here is the Boston Globe search page with a number of articles on the subject:
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we..._dispstring=bush texas alabama guard AND date(1/1/1998%20to%2012/31/2000)&p_field_date-0=YMD_date&p_params_date-0=date:B,E&p_text_date-0=1/1/1998%20to%2012/31/2000&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date&xcal_useweights=no

I prefer to have a president that legitimately served in the US Military, or at least served our country in government service at some point (and not JUST as a politician!).

Maybe it's just because I served in the military, but I feel that our country would be way better off now if McCain was President.

Cliff
GRB

 

[Singlecoil]

Singlecoil, I could give you the links, but I won't because I know from past experience that irrational people like you will carrry this smear to your grave.

You are the acuser. The burden of proof is on you. You claim that Lt Bush was "AWOL". That's a serious charge, and a serious person would not make it without substantial evidence.

You show me some proof of any adverse action taken by the Air Guard against Lt Bush.

There are no documented adverse actions, as you well know. Instead there are OERs and an honorable discharge that certify satisfactory service.

Well, maybe you should go to Dallas and look in the trash cans around the grassy knoll. You might find something there, if the UFOs didn't get it first.

Thanks for the flamebait, JackA$$. Don't bother trying to refute anything I said, just attack me as being irrational. Cute. Look at my post. Where does it say AWOL? Bush was removed from flying status for failure to complete a physical. Even he doesn't deny that. He went to Alabama, but can't remember what he did, nor does his C.O. ever remember seeing him there.http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...ode=&contentId=A59151-2000Jun25&notFound=true
WTF are you being so defensive about?

 

[GCD]

WTF

Do you know how many times I've been counted AWOL in the Guard becasue of the Guard's own FU's? Even my XO during this AT, which started Saturday, was counted as AWOL because no one told him he was transferred into the unit. This is common in the Guard.

It usually takes a letter to explain the Guard's FU by the Guardsman, which the news agencies fail to explain.

My XO, a shaved head, O4, ring knocker stated he would place himself in jail for being AWOL for two days. I told him to just go home to his wife for the night. That's enough punishment.

Geesh, does anyone really believe that GW was really AWOL?

 

[HueyPilot]

Clarification

It seems to me that the vast majority of those making assumptions and accusations of G.W. Bush's service in the National Guard have little or no knowledge about the military, and specifically the Guard.

Even people who served on active duty probably can't comment on it accurate because the National Guard and the active military, while seemingly similar, are two worlds apart.

Singlecoil, Bush was never "AWOL". That terms means Absent Without Leave. Not being on flying status is just that...not being on flying status. It's not AWOL. Not showing for traditional Guard weekend "drills" also doesn't necessarily mean you're AWOL either.

One thing you need to understand to make any sense of this is the Guard is VERY flexible when it comes to your civilian occupation. Generally, if your civilian job takes you away from your unit in such a capacity that you can't make your traditional obligation (ie attend unit drill on the weekends), you can either make it up via other ways, or in some cases you can be exempt from attending altogether.

In short, the Guard can't legally force you to give up your civilian occupation just to serve with a particular unit once a month. If Bush left to work on a political campaign in Alabama, and the campaign is legitimate (and it was), then the Texas Air Guard can't force him to come back to serve.

Bush requested to transfer, and that was denied. It was denied NOT because they wanted Bush to come back to Texas, but because Bush was an F-102 pilot, and he wasn't trained to fulfill any other career field. Plus he requested to transfer to the Air Force Reserve, which is a totally different entity. AFRes is a Federal organization, whereas the TXANG is a state organization. Bush received a direct commission (which is legal and not uncommon in the Guard), but that commission was a state commission with Federal recognition. In other words, he was a commissioned officer in the TXANG, but the federal government recognized his authority as such. However, he did not possess a federal full commission. So he was ineligible to serve as a commissioned officer in the AFRes.

I know, it sounds sketchy to some, but that's the way it works. We had a guy who was direct commissioned in the LA ARNG back in the late 1990s, and after flying helicopters for a while he wanted to fly airplanes. He couldn't go to the Reserves because he held a state commission. He couldn't attend federal OCS/OTS (Officer Candidate School) because you can't hold a commission of any kind prior to entry. So his only choice was to transfer to the LAANG to fly F-15s, which he did.

As for not flying the last two years, that's perfectly fine. We had a few people who chose to pursue other things, both in the Guard and in their civilian jobs. One guy transferred to a ground unit so he could make more time to attend law school. Another went on to the medical side of things to be a flight surgeon. Both guys had their flight status suspended because their physicals lapsed, and I'm sure they'd have a piece of paper just like Bush's that says so. But it doesn't mean they were in trouble...it just means they are no longer on flying status and here's the reason why. That flying status report doesn't have the space nor reason to delve into deeper subjects like "officer transferred to another state due to personal obligations"...it simply states "failure to accomplish physical". Which was the DIRECT reason why their flight status was canceled, but not the whole picture.

As for not showing...one friend of mine moved to Mississippi to become the manager of a new Sears store up there. He talked about maybe flying with a MS Guard unit, but when he got up there he didn't have time and basically did his Guard duty in bits and pieces. I don't know how he did it specifically, but he never showed up at any of our unit meetings, nor did he fly with us anymore. And he still had 1 year left in his obligation. Last I heard, he's in the inactive Guard. He was never in trouble.

As for making up the time, there are a million ways to do it. It depends on your commander and what they are willing to do to accomodate you. I've even seen units go so far as to simply release a person entirely. When I was enlisted, we had a guy move to Michigan and he simply "got out" of his enlistment and went directly to the inactive Guard because he didn't have any way of making it up to us.

In conclusion, I don't find anything wrong about Bush's service. Nothing. I was in the Guard for 8 years, and while his service isn't necessarily outstanding, it isn't the shameful record his critics make it out to be. Most of the comments I've seen regarding his service show basic lack of understanding when it comes to military service. It's like everyone who comments on his "record" acts like they are exposing something, yet they themselves don't understand any of what they're talking about. And his medical records? Those are private, and aren't available to the public. You can get into my personnel records and read my performance reports, etc, but you can't read my medical records, nor would I want you to. So just because I don't want you snooping through my medical records, does that immediately indicate I had some drug problem? No. And I seriously doubt any of you Bush critics would like anyone reading your medical history either.

 

[HueyPilot]

One more thing

Oh, I wanted to add...one story I read said that they felt Bush stopped flying because of his alcohol abuse, and he did it just in time to avoid "mandatory drug and alcohol tests" that were newly required.

I've never had an alcohol test in nearly 12 years of military service. If they tested for that, half the pilots in the military would fail! Alcohol abuse isn't necessarily grounds for disciplinary action. You may lose your flight status, but you're not going to go to jail if you "test positive" for alcohol (which I already mentioned they don't test for).

 

[HueyPilot]

More Stuff, Again

I'm NOT a diehard Bush fan. But at the same time, I can't stand smear campaigns. I read coil's post about the elder Bush's shootdown in WWII, saying it was unfortunate for his other two crewmen.

Then I read more on it and found a link to a website about Bush Jr's service (critical of it), and there was a page about Bush Sr's service and how some claim he jumped from the Avenger in fear and left his two crewmen to die in the impact.

It made me very mad, because it was clear that they were either very misinformed, or they were outright lying to smear the Bush family. One of the two other crewmen DID in fact get out of the airplane, and his body was found in his harness, but his chute failed to open properly. The other guy may have died or was incapacitated from injuries received during the hit.

In all honesty, I HOPE TO GOD I never have to run for public office. Those that, for whatever reason, didn't like me would use anything that sounded negative in my record to smear me. I can see it now....:

He had to get rechecked in the Huey THREE times! He must have been a poor pilot....his medical clearance expired for a MONTH! What physical problems was he hiding? Why didn't he get a physical as required by regulation? He FAILED an evaluation in pilot training, more evidence that he wasn't the great pilot he acts like he is...

All that could come up, because I lost currency in the UH-1 three times...twice due to the National Guard's failure to fund our flying hour program for 2-3 months at a time, and once because the UH-1 fleet was grounded for 4 months. I lost my medical clearance because the physician we contracted to do flight physicals couldn't schedule me until a month after my clearance expired because the Guard had an accounting problem and couldn't pay him. And I failed a checkride, but the average pilot training student failed at least one, sometimes two or more checkrides (and I graduated as distinguished graduate).

See how things can be twisted to serve a purpose?

 

[Singlecoil]

Once again, and hopefully for the last time, I NEVER SAID HE WAS AWOL, so kindly stop inferring that I made that statement. My point is that he CAN'T REMEMBER WHAT HE DID in Alabama or in Texas after the fact.
I raised the point about the elder Bush because until a few months ago I never realized that others in his airplane died on that mission as I'm sure many others were unaware. The story I had heard was that he had been shot down and was a hero. Surely it is relevant that there were others on the mission in his aircraft that weren't decorated and were killed.
It reminds me of JFK who managed to have his boat sheared in half by a Japanese Destroyer and have some of his men killed, but his father put him up for the Medal of Honor. He didn't get that medal but was awarded a lessor one none the less. Sons of privilege do get special treatment in this country. John McCain was the son of an Admiral and was offered an early release by the Vietnamese because of that but he turned it down knowing it was a PR ploy by the enemy. I have the utmost respect for John McCain, even though I am an airline pilot and he has made it very clear that he is anti-labor in his pursuit of the "baseball" arbitration legislation to supplant the Railway Labor Act.

I long for the day when we can elect a President who is above reproach. Clinton lied and will forever be remembered for that. The Bush Administration has repeatedly lied to the American people and will certainly be remember for that, though you won't see it reported on television. Their strategy has been to lie when asked poignant questions until the news cycle ends. The press then never re-raises those questions weeks later when the truth leaks out. For instance, the Clinton Whitehouse trashed computer equipment and stole china off Air Force One when Bush was declared the President. We all know the story that Ari Fleischer repeatedly told us. The fact that this did not occur did not make the news. How about the fact that Bush had to flee to a bunker under fighter escort in Nebraska on 9/11? Fleischer said that they had intercepts that the terrorists knew the "secret" call sign of Air Force One. Also a lie. That was a spin job so the president wouldn't look weak. Don't tell me the secret service ordered that he go to the bunker, the President is the Commander in Chief. He could have stayed aloft under fighter escort and been refueled until Andrews was deemed safe.
How about the Viking flight to the Lincoln? We all know that the White House said that the ship was too far off shore for a helicopter. Also a lie, as we all know. Don't tell me he's the Commander in Chief and he's entitled to get there how he pleases, of course he is. He doesn't have to lie about it.
Lastly, we have the developing story of the WMD in Iraq.
I am an American. I attacked Iraq. I told the world that their Weapons of Mass Destruction were an imminent threat to my country. I am not the only one that is now questioning the integrity of my elected leaders that pled this case on my behalf. Especially since Paul Wolfowitz and Donald Rumsfeld wrote a letter to Clinton in 1998 saying we should attack Iraq then. Especially since on the afternoon of 9/11, Rumsfeld's notes show that he wanted to link "U.B.L. to S.H", well before all the facts were in.

One thing I can be accused of is thread creep, and for that I apologize.

 

[Spur]

How about the fact that Bush had to flee to a bunker under fighter escort in Nebraska on 9/11?

1. You dont know what you are talking about. Offutt AFB has all the main command and control facilities to run a war. It is where you want to be if you are going to lead the country during an attack.

2. You dont understanding one **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** thing about the military, and reading this board is obviously not helping. You are demonstrating your ignorance and making a total fool of yourself, which, of course is your God given right.

3. It is easy for those who have never served their country to make accusations against those who have... trying to minimize their service possibly due to feelings of guilt and inadequacy for being the low-life users they are.

 

[Singlecoil]

1. You dont know what you are talking about. Offutt AFB has all the main command and control facilities to run a war. It is where you want to be if you are going to lead the country during an attack.

That would be the statement Ari Fleischer should have made, rather than making up a bunch of crap that there was a threat called in against Air Force One. Didn't happen.

By the way, you called me a "low-life user". You are correct, I do eat fish and the occasional mollusk.

 

[Chunk]

Dude....it's called the "fog of war". Messages get crossed, confused, and sometimes are completely wrong.

Doesn't matter anyway, the night of the 11th, he slept in his own bed. How is that running away?

Chunk

**added** Oh, and another thing; the USSS has very strict protocols and procedures during time of war and sometimes the president doesn't have much to say in the matter. Obviously, he is still the CinC, but I imagine they are quite persuasive and demanding.

 

[Singlecoil]

I have to ask, who is that hottie on your avatar?

 

[h25b]

I just wanted to thank "HueyPilot" for chiming in with his obvious insight to this discussion. I fly with some ex-military pilots (including one former AFR Squadron Commander) on regular basis and it's easy to understand how GB II's record can be easily twisted in to a smear campaign by those who simply are ignorant of (or fail to include) the way the military actually conducts its daily business.

By the way, for disclosure purposes, I say this not as Democrat or Republican. But as a voter VERY tired of the negative rhetoric conducted by BOTH sides. It's getting to the point where I'm expecting the, "but... my Daddy can beat up your Daddy..." any day now.

 

[Spur]

By the way, you called me a "low-life user". You are correct, I do eat fish and the occasional mollusk.

Well, although I didn't specifically apply the term to you, rather to those who invented the lies and twisted truth into falsehood, if you don't mind it...