Low Time FO's

[Sniper@YourFeet]

A discussion has developed about this, so I'm hoping to get it fresh eyes:

In simple terms, can a regional FO without their ATP or a PIC type use their right seat time to meet the 250 hour PIC requirement of the ATP?

FAR 61.159 tells you what you need for an ATP. Among other things, you need "250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command."

I've been told that FAR 61.55.b.2.ii will allow you to log SIC towards this 250 hour PIC requirement, b/c it says "Engine-out procedures and maneuvering with an engine out while executing the duties of pilot in command" is one of the requirements of a SIC annual check (a PT or PC).

The question is, just b/c a SIC does one maneuver in the sim (or airplane) during a PC "while executing the duties of PIC", does that mean that a SIC is always "performing the duties of PIC" whenever they are @ flying, just when they're the pilot flying, or never? Can a SIC with a FAA pilot's license limiting them to SIC privileges only in a plane log PIC in the plane?

Apparently, there is disagreement on the answers to these questions, since there are claims applicants using SIC @ their carrier to satisfy the 250 PIC requirement "has been shown to be current practice at most companies such as ASA, and Expressjet".

Can someone without a PIC type rating or an ATP log time that would satisfy the 250 hour PIC requirement of FAR 61.159 in an aircraft that requires a type rating and is being operated under FAR 121, which requires the PIC hold an ATP?

I would have put this in the FAR area, but it gets no viewing there.

 

[OCP]

Simple terms yes... If you want the safest route than you put in your log book something along the lines as "name" was second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command.... and have the type rated PIC put his signature and type # in there as a sign off. (for the leg flown)
Do a search on the WWW as this has come up a bunch.

 

[PA44Jockey]

Simple terms yes... If you want the safest route than you put in your log book something along the lines as "name" was second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command.... and have the type rated PIC put his signature and type # in there as a sign off. (for the leg flown)
Do a search on the WWW as this has come up a bunch.

I don't think I would go as far as getting the PIC's signature. You don't need his signature to log SIC and technically you wouldn't be logging SIC without a PIC present.

 

[OCP]

I don't think I would go as far as getting the PIC's signature. You don't need his signature to log SIC and technically you wouldn't be logging SIC without a PIC present.

Nope you don't. But if you want to "quote" the rules than the no questions asked is having it signed off. Has this all been done 100s of time, yes. But that one time.. who knows

 

[NoJoy]

Interesting question, but I would go with "no". PIC in a 121 operation is the one who signs for the release. Event the Captain applicant in the left seat getting IOE cannot log PIC time because the guy in the right seat is the PIC-they are the ones signing the release. I think it is pretty cut and dry.

 

[CX880]

FAR 61.159 tells you what you need for an ATP. Among other things, you need "250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command."

Well you answered your own question. That's what the FARs are there for. No need to make them even more complicated. I've flown with CAs that had 190 hours when they were hired as FOs.

 

[Lynxman]

Kinda scary if you work for an airline and you don't even have 250 hours PIC. In fact I'm kinda bothered by that.

 

[SEVEN]

Kinda scary if you work for an airline and you don't even have 250 hours PIC. In fact I'm kinda bothered by that.

Me too. But the "silver lining" is that after the Colgan crash, the days of hiring "unqualified" pilots for 121 ops is long gone. No more applicants getting hired with 188 total time, 14 hours multi, and a heart beat. Thank God that the changes are being made as we speak. The ONLY place for a pilot with 188 hours is flight instructing, banner towing, traffic watch, or gaining experience in the right seat of an aircraft that DOES NOT require 2 pilots. (except for insurance req.)

 

[shamrock]

My upgrade partner did the FlightSafety fast track thingy and didn't have the stated PIC time for upgrade but his time spent at ASA in the right seat was used to satisfy the requirement. It only took an hour and 15 minutes at the beginning of the oral for the FAA inspector, check-airman, and him to figure it out.

 

[Lynxman]

Me too. But the "silver lining" is that after the Colgan crash, the days of hiring "unqualified" pilots for 121 ops is long gone. No more applicants getting hired with 188 total time, 14 hours multi, and a heart beat. Thank God that the changes are being made as we speak. The ONLY place for a pilot with 188 hours is flight instructing, banner towing, traffic watch, or gaining experience in the right seat of an aircraft that DOES NOT require 2 pilots. (except for insurance req.)

I'm still low time myself but I at least have that much PIC maybe right around that much and I know for a fact I can't handle even being right seat in any jet.