Love Field operating in the Red. Who's fault is that? Not SWA!

[ivauir]

This business should have never lost Braniff to your pseudo airline crap.

Alright! Another for the list! You are a HATER

 

[Flopgut]

You know Ivauir, you might be (a little) right. I don't hate you. I hope you have a good career. I just hate the SWA characterization of themselves on this issue. It is utter bullsh!t and it is offensive. On this issue, your airline is making WalMart look like the March of Dimes.

 

[TAZ MAN]

Slander and insult huh? You are getting off easy. How about the career Braniff pilots and their families that your airline roasted? How about all the people who have suffered under this bullsh!t arrangement of one airport with pennies in fees (yours), and AA which gets to sponsor fees that exceed anyone's impression of reasonable? this is not about "you and me", don't flatter yourself. This is about Southwest Airlines and the crap they have been feeding people for 30+ years. This business should have never lost Braniff to your pseudo airline crap.

You meet me in person and you'll know it. I don't sugarcoat my feelings on this issue. Most often when I talk about this with my contemporaies who are at SWA they just stare at the floor and hope I shut up. They know they have a bullsh!t position on the issue.

Which Braniff are you talking about. 1...2...or 3?

If SWA was responsible for Braniffs demise why did Braniff coin AA the "Sky Nazis" and not SWA?

Lets face it...AA did greater harm to Braniff than SWA could have ever been capable times 10.

I'm afraid your a bit delusional.

 

[Flopgut]

Ivauir: I have not even looked at the "SWA upgrade" thread. I post nothing there, I don't care. Go ahead and upgrade, good for you. I said nothing to you on the age 60-65 stuff. However, if you want to talk Dallas airports/Southwest Airlines, that is personal, and your position is indefensible. SWA screwed Braniff to the wall in a less than honorable manner. If we can finally flush out the truth and your airline suffers, so be it.

 

[Flopgut]

I'm afraid your a bit delusional.

I'm sorry, I don't really have time to bring you fully up to speed on this issue.

It was Braniff 1, pertaining specifically to when Braniff matched every SWA leg from Love with a cheaper fair and SWA had Braniff thrown off the airport with a trumped up court order. Oh yeah, that was the free market at work....not.

 

[TAZ MAN]

I'm sorry, I don't really have time to bring you fully up to speed on this issue.

It was Braniff 1, pertaining specifically to when Braniff matched every SWA leg from Love with a cheaper fair and SWA had Braniff thrown off the airport with a trumped up court order. Oh yeah, that was the free market at work....not.

Black helicopters flying overhead?

I think I would call that predatory pricing. Which I think is frowned upon by the government.

Why don't you expand on AA a bit also?

Price fixing ring a bell?

Please expand on the expression "Ski Nazi" and where it came from.

 

[Flopgut]

Black helicopters flying overhead?

I think I would call that predatory pricing. Which I think is frowned upon by the government.

Why don't you expand on AA a bit also?

Price fixing ring a bell?

This was pre-predatory pricing to be sure! That phrase had not even been coined. This was just old fashion corrupt municipal politics. Braniff wanted the business, they wanted Love Field. Herb ambushed them.

AA is what they are. The airline that has raised the mortgage at DFW for forever. Do you think that is where they want to be? He11 no, they would rather DFW had never been built and they could have operated at Love.

 

[TAZ MAN]

This was pre-predatory pricing to be sure! That phrase had not even been coined. This was just old fashion corrupt municipal politics. Braniff wanted the business, they wanted Love Field. Herb ambushed them.

AA is what they are. The airline that has raised the mortgage at DFW for forever. Do you think that is where they want to be? He11 no, they would rather DFW had never been built and they could have operated at Love.

Braniff was deeply in debt when Braniff tried to snuff out SWA. It backfired on them. 747's and concordes hurt more than little ol SWA flying in Texas. Braniff was this huge international carrier for its time and they made some huge commitments and then deregulation came along. And they got caught with an anti-trust lawsuit. They try to fly out of DFW and AA killed them. Then AA got caught with an anti-trust lawsuit but it was too late. That is where the term "Ski Nazi" came from. Some think it is a term given just to the pilots. But it was coined to AA altogether by the Braniff management.

Holding SWA responsible for Braniffs demise is a long, long stretch. They weren't exactly a healthy company for a very long time.

 

[canyonblue]

Braniff lowered its Dallas-Houston fare to just $13. In an action that became characteristic of the airline, Muse responded with newspaper advertisements claiming, "Nobody's going to shoot Southwest Airlines out of the sky for a lousy $13," offering customers their choice of either a $13 fare or a full-fare ticket plus a fifth of premium liquor. The bottles of liquor did not cost $13, but a businessman could put the $26 fare on his expense report and take the liquor home free. Once again, a Braniff tactic backfired. With 80 percent of its customer base choosing to pay full fare, Southwest won this 1972 fare war and became the largest distributor in Texas of Chivas, Crown Royal, and Smirnoff. Braniff and Texas International were later indicted and pled nolo contendere to antitrust charges in connection with their activities involving Southwest.

 

[Skyboss]

This is not really a problem, SWA has plenty of money to make this right. I think they should be able to recoup all the monies rightfully owed the airport for all these years. SWA might have to call off some growth and sell some planes or something. If it were AA ripping off the public like this they would want to shut them down. SWA should be treated no better.

SWA isn't the owner and operator of DAL, they don't have anything that can make poor management of an airport right. In fact, controlling airlines at a facility are generally more of a problem then an assistant in airport finance. I haven't seen an airline yet with the majority of the operations at a given facility not try to take advantage of an airport.

 

[Skyboss]

I mean come on, are you kidding me? $.35 vs. $8+ dollars! That's ridiculous. I hope they start pulling your nuts off over this. You deserve it.

It's $.35 per 1,000 at DAL ($3.50 per 10,000) vs. $4.35 per 10,000 for signatory carriers at DFW.

 

[Flopgut]

In the context of today's debate, one can ask: Did Dallas need to build DFW in the first place? Looking back, all the airport has done is cause problems and be expensive, and it continues today. The unequitable distribution of airport costs revealed in this thread is highway robbery. It is a "big picture" symptom of what ails this business now. I hope they fix it, quickly. If they find any evidence of wrongdoing (which we all know does exist) I think they should consider levying a windfall profits tax on SWA earnings during the time this airport costs disparity was in place.

If DFW had not been built, Braniff might still be gone. Harding Lawrence was convinced deregulation would not work. So as soon as he could, he expanded Braniff operations exponentially. 118 new worldwide destinations almost overnight. My thesis is this: he may still be right! Just off by three+ decades. You have to ask yourself if deregulation was a good thing when we replaced this airline: braniffpages.com with Southwest airlines? I think we are going the wrong direction. Now, what would SWA look like if we had never built DFW?

Ivauir, why is so difficult for you to tolerate a bit of hyperbole in your debates? You are more worried about being slighted than what the gist of the discussion is. I'll try to tone it down some, but do you think you might be a little oversensitive?

 

[scoreboard]

Ygbsm

In the context of today's debate, one can ask: Did Dallas need to build DFW in the first place? NO Looking back, all the airport has done is cause problems and be expensive, and it continues today. I agree. The unequitable distribution of airport costs revealed in this thread is highway robbery. But whom is to blame if, if it is true? It is a "big picture" symptom of what ails this business now. I hope they fix it, quickly. If they find any evidence of wrongdoing (which we all know does exist) I hear black helicopters again... I think they should consider levying a windfall profits tax on SWA earningsduring the time this airport costs disparity was in place. Because why? supposition and inuendo? What facts do you have?

If DFW had not been built, woulda Braniff might still be gone. coulda Harding Lawrence was convinced deregulation would not work. So as soon as he could, he expanded Braniff operations exponentially. 118 new worldwide destinations almost overnight. Oh yes, thats SWA's fault, now i follow your logic, it's all SWA's fault! fault. My thesis is this: he may still be right! Just off by three+ decades. You have to ask yourself if deregulation was a good thing when we replaced this airline: braniffpages.com with Southwest airlines? Yes I think we are going the wrong direction. I don't. Now, what would SWA look like if we had never built DFW? Shoulda. Shoulda never built DFW, now your talking!! But we will never know, here and now baby, let the past go. Let the WA fall, as it is, slowly if not surely. There is enough market out there for all to survive. Funny how the AA CEO said they would not come to LUV if it didn't make money, yet when we say it about moving to DFW, we get slammed.

Ivauir, why is so difficult for you to tolerate a bit of hyperbole in your debates? You are more worried about being slighted than what the gist of the discussion is. I'll try to tone it down some, but do you think you might be a little oversensitive?

.....

 

[Skyboss]

In the context of today's debate, one can ask: Did Dallas need to build DFW in the first place?

In 1969, no... unless you consider the runway length issue. By 1999, O&D demand for the region was such that they would have been looking for a new site and planning a new replacement airport today more on par with Denver. Then again, the economic gains from DFW may never have been realized leaving Dallas a bit smaller. Some call it not needed, I call it having foresight to deal with a problem 30 years in advance. A lot of other cities should have had such foresight, maybe we wouldn't have this box of bandaids we call aviation infrastructure.

As for the status of WN, they probably woudl have been absorbed long ago. DAL remaining open did much to protect WN.

 

[OffHot]

Flopgut you like to compare us to WalMart a lot, yet there is very little comparison, Microsoft would be a much better choice. Second, based on your anger you flew for Braniff 1, if not then your opion means little because your facts are slanted. I bet you own a dog named SWA and kick it each day.

 

[Skyboss]

Flopgut you like to compare us to WalMart a lot, yet there is very little comparison, Microsoft would be a much better choice. Second, based on your anger you flew for Braniff 1, if not then your opion means little because your facts are slanted. I bet you own a dog named SWA and kick it each day.

Be real man. Microsoft? Microsoft serves averyone, you only serve a select few with enough pax demand. Microsoft... That's funny. Self re-invention is beautiful.

Signed,

PSA

 

[OffHot]

Walmart pays low and has little benifits. Puts mom and pop out of business and has a major influence overseas. Just like SWA hey. Dispatcher hey, you better fear Microsoft they can do your job cheaper and faster!

 

[fox51ramprat]

Flopgut,
A-Lot of us would be in much better shape if Braniff was still around, but they are not. We must move on. SWA had very little to do with their demise. De-Regulation had the most to do with it. They were part of the "deal" back in '68. I miss the flying colors of Braniff, I had family there.

 

[Skyboss]

Walmart pays low and has little benifits. Puts mom and pop out of business and has a major influence overseas. Just like SWA hey. Dispatcher hey, you better fear Microsoft they can do your job cheaper and faster!

Southwest charges too little, serves only large markets and puts every other airline in a financial wreck by saturating the major trunk routes.

 

[OffHot]

Southwest charges too little, serves only large markets and puts every other airline in a financial wreck by saturating the major trunk routes.

OK Mr MBA, you have made it apperent with this comment that you do not know what you are talking about. Charges to little---yet makes a profit, fuel hedges right, Serves only large markets, Midland, Spokane, Tuson, Lubbock, SWA puts other airlines in a financial wreck, the other airlines make their own decissions, SWA doesn't sit on their board. What AA or UAL does is based hopefully on a sound business plan. The airline business is not a zero-sum gain, create a product that people want and you will draw new customers and even some from other airlines. My point about Microsoft is that we don't have the most desired product, JBLU, AA etc are very nice airlines just like Apple is to the computer industry, so why then is Microsoft so popular: I'll save you the headache, they are masters of marketing, just like SWA has done along with sound business decissions (keeps costs low). We compete, AA competes, Braniff could not compete in a deregulated enviornment, so they are gone. It's great that you enjoy your airline, but make it better and let the others make mistakes.

 

[Skyboss]

OK Mr MBA, you have made it apperent with this comment that you do not know what you are talking about. Charges to little---yet makes a profit, fuel hedges right, Serves only large markets, Midland, Spokane, Tuson, Lubbock, SWA puts other airlines in a financial wreck, the other airlines make their own decissions, SWA doesn't sit on their board. What AA or UAL does is based hopefully on a sound business plan. The airline business is not a zero-sum gain, create a product that people want and you will draw new customers and even some from other airlines. My point about Microsoft is that we don't have the most desired product, JBLU, AA etc are very nice airlines just like Apple is to the computer industry, so why then is Microsoft so popular: I'll save you the headache, they are masters of marketing, just like SWA has done along with sound business decissions (keeps costs low). We compete, AA competes, Braniff could not compete in a deregulated enviornment, so they are gone. It's great that you enjoy your airline, but make it better and let the others make mistakes.

You don't compete, you undercut prices then saturate markets so that competition is impossible. Compete, hell... How many major airports is Southwest to chicken chit to pull into? Time for Southwest to put their money where there mouth is.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

Southwest charges too little, serves only large markets and puts every other airline in a financial wreck by saturating the major trunk routes.

You don't compete, you undercut prices then saturate markets so that competition is impossible. Compete, hell... How many major airports is Southwest to chicken chit to pull into? Time for Southwest to put their money where there mouth is.

Say Again?

You say SWA doesn't want to compete with your carrier and then, when the fare competition is too hot, you say SWA saturates the market too much. Not an invalide complaint, but I'm missing your point.

Do you want to compete by--

Aircraft size?
Time to 10,000 ft?
Quality of paintjob?

Or by profit vs. loss?

Please tell. I'm thinking SWA does put their money where their mouth is. How 'bout your airline (which one is that again?)

 

[Skyboss]

Say Again?

You say SWA doesn't want to compete with your carrier and then, when the fare competition is too hot, you say SWA saturates the market too much. Not an invalide complaint, but I'm missing your point.

Do you want to compete by--

Aircraft size?
Time to 10,000 ft?
Quality of paintjob?

Or by profit vs. loss?

Please tell. I'm thinking SWA does put their money where their mouth is. How 'bout your airline (which one is that again?)

There's more to it than profit and loss. Unless you consider the rest of the US fly-over country as Southwest does. Anyone can cherry pick markets with no risk. I'm sick of hearing about heroics of Southwest as they enter yet another market guranteed to have pax. Let's see them try to serve markets only network carriers dare to go after then see how they brag about profitability. This is Southwests flaw, and one they will never overcome. It is why they must continue to grow, but unfortunately for them that growth is limited.

Simple as that.

 

[mdf]

Okay, now it's becoming clear! Skyboss is really Skybox. The jilted x-wife of a SWA pilot.

 

[Remington]

Didn't general Custard try to compete where the odds where against him?
So, Skyboss, SWA should try to compete in a place that does not fit their business model so they can lose money like the other airlines in the US? What the hell is Southwest thinking - flying into cities where they can make money. Idiots. All Herb ever said was that he wanted to compete with folks driving from point A to point B, Not compete with the Goliaths of the Airline industry. 34 years later, that is exactly what they are doing. Profitably.
Maby you should stay with dispatching and let the people who know whats going on do their job.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

There's more to it than profit and loss. Unless you consider the rest of the US fly-over country as Southwest does. Anyone can cherry pick markets with no risk. I'm sick of hearing about heroics of Southwest as they enter yet another market guranteed to have pax. Let's see them try to serve markets only network carriers dare to go after then see how they brag about profitability. This is Southwests flaw, and one they will never overcome. It is why they must continue to grow, but unfortunately for them that growth is limited.

Simple as that.

An analyst just raised AMR's and CAL's 2006 profit outlooks by over a $1 a share. Southwest was increased by pennies. The profits will start rolling in at some of the hub and spoke carriers. Their improvements will be much more news worthy than the meager increases at SWA and JetBlue.

Hopefully that will help keep you from getting sick as more new Southwest cities are announced next year.

Cheer up, life is too short.

 

[SWA/FO]

The real airlines have very high fares into smaller cities.....ie. they like to rip them off.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't some airports pay (federal money) to get major airline service?

Skybox,

I'm with you on this one.... I wish we would start losing money and pick very small cities that don't even support our high frequency & high demand business model. We should smoke what you're smoking so then everyone would be happy... then we can re-name the airline....something like United, Northwest or Delta, sounds about right.