lost comm clarification

[flyownnav]

If a lost comm situation arises enroute and the clearance limit is the airport, is there a requirement to hold if you arive early? I couldn't find the FAR that deals with the airport as a clearance limit, only a fix from which the approach can or can't begin. (91.185.c.3) Logically it doesn't seem necessary since ATC didn't anticipate the need to give a clearance short of the airport.
Thanks

 

[HMR]

What? An unclear FAR?

If you look at 91.185(C)(3)(ii), it looks like you're supposed to fly to the airport then "proceed to a fix from which an approach begins".

I once asked someone from ATC about this and he said (paraphrase) "We know you're Lost Comm so we want you out of the airspace ASAP. Just shoot an approach and land." Sounds simple enough but like everything in aviation, if there's an incident I need a better excuse than what "some guy from ATC" told me.

 

[flyownnav]

Exactly the quandary I'm speaking of, and if you are not GPS equipped how exactly do they want you to fly to the airport and then to an IAF?

 

[pilotyip]

It is an emergency

Like HMR say above, Now a days lost comm is an emergency, exercise you emergency authority and get on the ground. Answer questions later. Look into John Travolta's G-II story from 1993. They went lost comm, landed at DCA, that was not on their flight plan, at 2100L against traffic. End of story no violations.

 

[greygoose]

The airport is your clearance limit, if your clearance limit were a fix outside a busy airport you are stuck at that fix until your eta. Thats why they mostly say cleared to your destination as filed. If you were to arrive at the airport and hold for 20 to 30 minutes you more then less would shut down that airport from arrivals. I had heard it happened because a pvt inst pilot held near a airport until is eta.

 

[JAFI]

Many pilots think you have to fly to their destination. If you find your self in VFR you are to land some where ----VFR. Check the lost comm FAR.

You need to have 91.3 memorized. It is not long or unclear. You can deviate from any part to MEET an emergency. It means just that.

Lost comm is somewhat a thing of the past with cell phones. Do you know the phone number of a local ATC or FSS facility you use?????

JAFI

 

[HMR]

Many pilots think you have to fly to their destination. If you find your self in VFR you are to land some where ----VFR. Check the lost comm FAR.

Since the poster mentioned 91.185 I assumed he was aware of 91.185(b) and was refering to a flight that remained in IMC conditions.

What kind of cell phone do you have? Mine doesn't work at 15,000' much less FL390.

 

[JAFI]

What kind of cell phone do you have? Mine doesn't work at 15,000' much less FL390.

Well I do not think cell phone were ever designed to work at 390. At the lower altitudes they work just fine (if you are in range of a cell tower) if can get a signal - Not over the Pacific, North Pole, outer space, etc. If your aircraft can fly at 390 you may have a Flight Phone of some sort.

I have talked with pilots that think if you are on an IFR flight plan you must remain on the flight plan untill you land at your destination. They do not remember that if you find your self VFR, and can stay VFR, you are to find an airport and land VFR.

JAFI

 

[HMR]

I have talked with pilots that think if you are on an IFR flight plan you must remain on the flight plan untill you land at your destination. They do not remember that if you find your self VFR, and can stay VFR, you are to find an airport and land VFR.

Another reason why it's good to spend some time as a CFII. We don't forget that stuff.

You're right about the flight phone. Works great.

 

[JAFI]

Another reason why it's good to spend some time as a CFII. We don't forget that stuff.

IMHO working as a flight instructor is the best route to go (at least it was for me). You really don't start learning until you have to teach the material.

JAFI

 

[Vector4fun]

One point I'll make. You'll normally always be cleared to destination airport initially. Remember, lost com procedures are written to cover non-radar as well as radar environments. ATC isn't going to have a clue what you're filed estimate was, so there's little point in holding until that time if you're in a radar environment and squawking 7600.

In a NON-radar environment, on the other hand, at some point, you're going to get a revised clearance limit, usually an IAF. And in a NON-radar environment, you *should* be making those "old fashioned" type position reports. You know, the ones with your time at the compulsory reporting point, your estimate at the next, and the name of the next fix after?

And since you made such wonderfully acurate position reports and estimate, ATC then knows your ETA at the IAF. And that's the time you would begin the approach natch.

 

[sqwkvfr]

Hey Jafi, could you clear up another little discrepancy that I've run into?

Lost comms: I've got a riddle grad instructor pilot telling me that you fly at the MEA no matter what the course in IMC.

I say, you fly at the lowest appropriate IFR altitude. (example: MEA is 10K and you're heading east...he says you fly at 10K I say that you fly at 11K)

I laid out the example of another lost comms aircraft coming toward you at the MEA...he just told me that it would be such a rare occurance that it would just "be your day to go."

What about a stuck mike or a problem an ATC facility that puts several aircraft into lost comms in a certain area?

Am I wrong?

 

[HMR]

sqwkvfr- You're both wrong. Here's an idea: read 91.185(C)(2).

Oh...and get a new instructor.

 

[Donsa320]

Just a note about being cleared to an airport. Anytime your clearance is to anywhere across a center boundary into another center's area, you should always receive a clearance to an airport. Once your flight is going to remain in a given center or approach control area you may receive a clearance to a fix short of your destination. You probably have noticed that anyway, but that is why.
Now, there may be letters of agreement between certain facilities here and there that do not follow that general rule so your mileage may vary. <g>

~DC

 

[JAFI]

Folks, I think IMHO that the point of the Lost procedure is to have a plan on what to do if the comm's stop working. The whole point is to have the aircraft land safely. If you want to go further on look under 91.3:

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency.

As PIC -YOU- get to determine what action is required to meet that emergency - with the caveat (legal condition) that the deviation is to MEET that emergency. Flying for an extra hour to land where your car is parked may not be a condition to meet that emergency.

As HMR said take another look at 91.185 (c)(2).

I would not fire your Instructor if this is the only question that you have about him/her.

Read the regulation (91.185) and think "if there is more than one option, pick the safer one" and see how that works.

JAFI

 

[sqwkvfr]

sqwkvfr- You're both wrong. Here's an idea: read 91.185(C)(2).

Oh...and get a new instructor.

I should've been more specific...Example: you're flying on a route, in IMC. Your at 9000 (filed for and cleared to) on an eastbound course...You lose comms...you're in IMC...you come to a segment along your route (this has nothing to do with being cleared to a fix or the original question, BTW, sorry if I confused you) that has a 10K MEA. HE says fly at the MEA, I say fly at 11K.

What would it be?? 91.185(c)(2) says "minimum altitude for IFR operations."

It's gotta be one or the other....I really dont see how we'd both be wrong (if you'd like to expound on that statement, I'd be interested to hear it)....so which would it be?

 

[DrewBlows]

I should've been more specific...Example: you're flying on a route, in IMC. Your at 9000 (filed for and cleared to) on an eastbound course...You lose comms...you're in IMC...you come to a segment along your route (this has nothing to do with being cleared to a fix or the original question, BTW, sorry if I confused you) that has a 10K MEA. HE says fly at the MEA, I say fly at 11K.

What would it be?? 91.185(c)(2) says "minimum altitude for IFR operations."

It's gotta be one or the other....I really dont see how we'd both be wrong (if you'd like to expound on that statement, I'd be interested to hear it)....so which would it be?

Fly the highest of your assigned, expected, or minimum for your route. If you are lower than the MEA it is because you were assigned that altitude, so climb up to your filed altitude. (You did file an altitude above all MEA's didn't you?)

Note: The above statement doesn't apply when descending to the airport, you should descend using a normal profile (think coming down from FL310, it wouldn't work if you started your descent at the iaf). Make sure you observe the MSA and you will be fine. Throw it all out the window if you encounter VMC. If that's the case just find an airport and land.

 

[sqwkvfr]

(You did file an altitude above all MDA's didn't you?)

No, I didn't file above all --I hope you mean MEAs not MDAs-- MEAs....let's say for the sake of this discussion because I didn't wanna fly at the higher altitude for the entire route for O2/winds aloft/whatever reason.

In my example, I filed for an initial cruising altitude of 9k. ATC cleared me to 9K.

Now, if I'm in IMC, lost comms, and I come to a segment of the route with a 10K MEA, do I fly at the MEA on an eastbound heading or do I climb to 11K??

 

[HMR]

Lost comms: I've got a riddle grad instructor pilot telling me that you fly at the MEA no matter what the course in IMC.

91.185(C)(2): "Altitude. At the highest of the following altitudes or flight levels for the route segment being flown". 91.185(C)(2)(ii): "The minimum altitude for IFR operations". If the MEA is 10K and you're headed east I'd say your "route segment being flown" requires 11K. If the comms were working properly you'd be at 11K. You're making a bad situation (lost comms) worse by flying IMC at the wrong altitude for your direction of flight. I think your instructor is wrong.

I say, you fly at the lowest appropriate IFR altitude. (example: MEA is 10K and you're heading east...he says you fly at 10K I say that you fly at 11K)

I understand what you mean now that you clarified it in your other post and I agree.

 

[SSDD]

You guys are reading way too much into this and making it too complicated. The regs says to fly the "MEA", not the next higher altitude for the direction of flight. If the MEA is 9,300', or 10,300', then that's what you fly.