lost comm clarification

[HMR]

For those of you still awake...here's the rest!

(c) Leave clearance limit.





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(1) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect further clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) Estimated Time En Route (ETE).



(2) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect further clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.


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6-4-2. Transponder Operation During Two-way Communications Failure




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a. If an aircraft with a coded radar beacon transponder experiences a loss of two-way radio capability, the pilot should adjust the transponder to reply on MODE A/3, Code 7600.



b. The pilot should understand that the aircraft may not be in an area of radar coverage.



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6-4-3. Reestablishing Radio Contact




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a. In addition to monitoring the NAVAID voice feature, the pilot should attempt to reestablish communications by attempting contact:





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1. On the previously assigned frequency, or



2. With an FSS or *ARINC.



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b. If communications are established with an FSS or ARINC, the pilot should advise that radio communications on the previously assigned frequency has been lost giving the aircraft's position, altitude, last assigned frequency and then request further clearance from the controlling facility. The preceding does not preclude the use of 121.5 MHz. There is no priority on which action should be attempted first. If the capability exists, do all at the same time.





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NOTE-


*Aeronautical Radio/Incorporated (ARINC) is a commercial communications corporation which designs, constructs, operates, leases or otherwise engages in radio activities serving the aviation community. ARINC has the capability of relaying information to/from ATC facilities throughout the country.

THANK YOU AND GOOD NIGHT.

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[Lead Sled]

For a pilot of a high performance jet, it wouldn't be very practical to maintain your cruising altitude (typically FL370 or higher) until you reached the clearance limit. ATC will be painfully aware that they're not talking to you and they'll going to clear the airspace around you for miles. They want to you to be predictable. I guarantee you that if you maintain your cruising flight level until you get to the IAF or over the airport they're going to be wondering just what on Earth you're going to do next. If you encounter VFR conditions enroute then maintain VFR and land. If you can't terminate the flight VFR then make a normal descent (If you filed a STAR then you'll want to comply with any published altitudes and airspeeds on it.) If you end up having to shoot an approach, get yourself to an appropriate IAF and fly the approach. ATC will see what you're doing and you'll have the airspace to all yourself.

'Sled

 

[146guy]

"If the radio failure occurs after the time/fix specified, the altitude to be expected is not applicable and the pilot should maintain an altitude consistent with 1 or 2 above." (AIM)


I like this part, I'd bet most would just climb to their expected altitude. Going lost comm. shortly after takeoff would be a real fuel problem especially in the mid-west with low MEA's or MORA's if filed direct. A lot of the SID's only take you to 5000' or so, you would end up only being able to fly at very low altitudes all the way to your destination!

 

[nosehair]

Here's something I've learned about honest questions in Aviation: If "higher time" guys cop an attitude when you seek advice, it's usually a good sign they don't know themselves.

This is the wisest bit of information on this thread.

 

[NYCPilot]

Here's an easy way to recall the lost comm rules.
Just remember: MEA and C,D,E,F.


ALTITUDE
Fly the highest of your M.E.A.

M = MEA
E = Expected
A = Assigned




ROUTE
"CDEF" (Fly the route in this order)

C = Cleared
D = Direct (to the NAV aid if being RADAR vectored)
E = Expected
F = Filed


AB...C, D, E, F (just like the alphabet, in this order)

 

[check6]

So, I know this was posted a while ago, but let me get this straight. If the Clearance Limit is the airport, which is the most common, then the idea would be to shoot the approach and land ASAP. If the clearance limit is not the airport, and instead a fix(either a random fix or an IAF),then that is when FAR 91.185(c)(3) comes into play. That's what my consensus is, unless someone wants to add something. I do agree with all the comments about the situation being an emergency and the references to 91.3(that's probably what I'd do), but as an instructor, I want to teach it out of the book.

 

[NYCPilot]

If the clearance limit fix is the airport then you would begin an approach as close as possible to your filed ETA, not “ASAP.” Should you arrive earlier, you would hold at an approach fix until your ETA before beginning the approach.

If the clearance limit is a fix other than the airport or an approach fix (IAF), you would hold at the clearance limit fix until EFC and then proceed to an approach fix of your choice and begin an approach. If you arrive at the approach fix earlier than your filed ETA, hold there until ETA and then begin your approach. If you were not issued an EFC time prior to your clearance limit fix, you would proceed to the clearance limit and continue on to an approach fix where you would hold until your filed ETA. At ETA, you would begin the approach.

Also, under these circumstances the airspace is cleared for you and you have the right to execute any IAP for that particular destination. Of course, prudence dictates (as well as the FAR’s) that should you happen to encounter VFR weather, maintain VFR and land as soon as practicable.

Whenever you are given holding instructions or a clearance limit, the controller is required to issue an EFC time. This EFC time is important for the very reason that if you lose two-way communications, your route and intentions of flight will be predicable. That is why it is issued. Also, if you haven’t received an EFC time or a clearance beyond your clearance limit, you are expected to hold at this fix, until advised otherwise.

Although these are the rules to technically follow in the event of a total lost of communications, you may elect to just begin the approach anyway, especially since ATC will most likely have you on RADAR. This will help clear the airspace sooner.

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Exactly the quandary I'm speaking of, and if you are not GPS equipped how exactly do they want you to fly to the airport and then to an IAF?

Sorry if someone answered this question already, too lazy to read all 4 pages.

If you look in your AFD most (if not all) airports have some kind or radial, brg, and dme from a navaid nearby. Usually that navaid is associated with the enroute structure so, if you are on the airways you can easily go to the navaid/fix and navigate to your airport using Class one navigation.

 

[NYCPilot]

DC8 Flyer –

Good point. Seems to be a little known fact that there is usually a radial or bearing of some sort that takes you directly to the airport that can be found in the AF/D. One time I had a student divert on a cross country due to simulated weather. I asked him to take me to an airport that was small and partially obscured by mountains on both sides. As predicted, he had a lot of difficulty trying to locate it. Aside from pointing out the obvious, such as climbing to a higher altitude and locating it in relation to prominent landmarks, I explained to him how he could quite easily look up the radial that leads right to it, from the AF/D. If one is not handy, you can draw a line from a VOR direct to the airport as well (assuming you have a sectional).

If for some reason you do need to divert, it’s a lot easier to pick an airport with a navigation facility on or near the field and one with DME is a plus. This makes your navigation and computations much easier.

 

[huncowboy]

If the clearance limit fix is the airport then you would begin an approach as close as possible to your filed ETA, not “ASAP.” Should you arrive earlier, you would hold at an approach fix until your ETA before beginning the approach.

We have this argument going for the last few months at my place as well. I tend to disagree with the above.

The title of 91.185(c)(3) is: "Leave clearance limit."

Thus my understanding is that the rule does not kick in, when your airport is the clearance limit as you will never need to leave it. So I won't even get into reading the paragraphs under it as it does not apply. IMHO you would proceed and fly the approach upon arrival. Our DPE is on the same view which means nada. However our Regional FAA inspector from the Orlando FSDO is on the same opinion as you and many others... which again means nothing.

I have also read at some noname website that this rule was designed for non-radar. In non-radar cases you'd always get a clearance limit other than your airport. With my waste (sarcasm) experience of local IFR flying in South FL, which is always covered by radar, I can't back this up (except that I always get cleared to the airport) but it seems to make perfect sense. But common sense is poor guidance when reading the FARs.

I would love to see a court ruling or Legal Council interpretation. Perhaps Avbug or someone else has something for us.

As far as the altitude goes, IMO read AIM 6-4-1 especially Example 2.

2. A pilot experiencing two-way radio failure while being progressively descended to lower altitudes to begin an approach is assigned 2,700 feet until crossing the VOR and then cleared for the approach. The MOCA along the airway is 2,700 feet and MEA is 4,000 feet. The aircraft is within 22 NM of the VOR. The pilot should remain at 2,700 feet until crossing the VOR because that altitude is the minimum IFR altitude for the route segment being flown.

To me the above indicates that minimum altitudes are MEA, MOCA, MORA and published altitudes on approach plates starting with MSA and feeder routes all the way down to MDA and DA. Also none of the examples mention appropriate IFR altitudes based on magnetic course.

Would I put money (if I would not be a CFI and would have some) on my theories above? Nope.