lost comm clarification

[inthewind]

In the military we went over this extensively every year. As far as when to shoot the approach [/U]or leave your clearance limit, it it at your filed eta of the efc.
The altitude is the highest of MEA, assigned, or expected.

A few years ago a contractor cut the com cables for all of Miami Center when digging with a backhoe. Everyone complied with above procedures and landed safely. What would have happened if American XXXX had decided that 'O well I'm under radar control I'll shoot the approach whenever I goddamn feel like it?

 

[NYCPilot]

We have this argument going for the last few months at my place as well. I tend to disagree with the above.

The title of 91.185(c)(3) is: "Leave clearance limit."

Thus my understanding is that the rule does not kick in, when your airport is the clearance limit as you will never need to leave it. So I won't even get into reading the paragraphs under it as it does not apply. IMHO you would proceed and fly the approach upon arrival. Our DPE is on the same view which means nada. However our Regional FAA inspector from the Orlando FSDO is on the same opinion as you and many others... which again means nothing.

That’s correct that you will never have to “leave” the airport, because you will not head to it first (unless of course, it is an IAF because there is a navaid on the field which is, or will guide you to, the approach fix (IAF)). But my interpretation still stands. The point being, you will either begin the approach immediately upon arrival at an approach fix (a.k.a. IAF) or hold until your ETA. This is predicated upon receiving an EFC time or not.

You CANNOT begin an instrument approach UNLESS you have an IAF in which to execute it from. Therefore, all approaches (RADAR and non-RADAR under a lost-comm. situation) will require the commencement of the approach from this point. Some airports have multiple IAF’s some only one. The point is, the IAF is a means to transition from the enroute environment into the approach environment by means of radio navigation. Thus, EFC or not, ETA or not, you will begin your approach from an IAF. Think of the clearance limit, if it is the airport, as being the IAF or putting it another way, the IAF is representative of the airport if the airport is the clearance limit fix.

Hope this doesn’t sound too confusing.

 

[Vector4fun]

I have also read at some noname website that this rule was designed for non-radar. In non-radar cases you'd always get a clearance limit other than your airport. With my waste (sarcasm) experience of local IFR flying in South FL, which is always covered by radar, I can't back this up (except that I always get cleared to the airport) but it seems to make perfect sense. But common sense is poor guidance when reading the FARs.

I would love to see a court ruling or Legal Council interpretation. Perhaps Avbug or someone else has something for us.

Here ya go Cowboy,


Faa 7110.65 Controller's Handbook

4-7-6. ARRIVAL INFORMATION

b. Forward the following information to approach control facilities before transfer of control jurisdiction:

NOTE-
Transfer points are usually specified in a letter of agreement.
​

1. Aircraft identification.

2. Type of aircraft and appropriate aircraft equipment suffix.

3. ETA or actual time, and proposed or actual altitude over clearance limit. The ETA need not be given if the arrival information is being forwarded during a radar handoff.

4. Clearance limit (when other than the destination airport) and EFC issued to the aircraft. Clearance limit may be omitted when provided for in a letter of agreement.
​

5. Time, fix, or altitude when control responsibility is transferred to the approach control facility. This information may be omitted when provided for in a letter of agreement.



In a non-radar environment, the LOAs will always (In my experience) specify a revised clearance limit other than the airport, and will always require an ETA from the Center. And remember, no controller knows what you're filed ETA was, unless you filed with that controller. Hopefully, you also remembered to start figuring and reporting your ETA to the next fix after the controller said "Radar service terminated, contact XYZ Approach on 118.6" or some such.


What I don't know, actually, is whether there are any non-radar Approach Controls left in the Lower 48. There were several dozen back when I got started in this Biz...​

 

[huncowboy]

That’s correct that you will never have to “leave” the airport, because you will not head to it first (unless of course, it is an IAF because there is a navaid on the field which is, or will guide you to, the approach fix (IAF)). But my interpretation still stands. The point being, you will either begin the approach immediately upon arrival at an approach fix (a.k.a. IAF) or hold until your ETA. This is predicated upon receiving an EFC time or not.

You CANNOT begin an instrument approach UNLESS you have an IAF in which to execute it from. Therefore, all approaches (RADAR and non-RADAR under a lost-comm. situation) will require the commencement of the approach from this point. Some airports have multiple IAF’s some only one. The point is, the IAF is a means to transition from the enroute environment into the approach environment by means of radio navigation. Thus, EFC or not, ETA or not, you will begin your approach from an IAF. Think of the clearance limit, if it is the airport, as being the IAF or putting it another way, the IAF is representative of the airport if the airport is the clearance limit fix.

Hope this doesn’t sound too confusing.

We never had a disagreement about weather you can or can't shoot an approach from an IAF w/o comm. That should be part of everyone's flight planning to indicate an IAF as your last waypoint in the FP.

I am only talking about weather you will or will not hold until ETA.

 

[Lead Sled]

...That should be part of everyone's flight planning to indicate an IAF as your last waypoint in the FP...

That is not a requirement. What if the IAP is for an approach that's inappropriate for the circumstances? If your clearance limit is an airport, you simply select an appropriate approach, make your way to the IAP, fly it and land. ATC will clear the airspace for miles around you. You guys are making this too hard.

'Sled

 

[huncowboy]

That is not a requirement.
'Sled

never said it was... as far as making it hard... how about coming up with some good reference or source or whatever other than "you guys're making it too hard..." we aren't making anything too hard just simply trying to figure out what to teach to students.

 

[LAZYB]

Nordo

If your clearance limit is an airport, you simply select an appropriate approach, make your way to the IAP, fly it and land. ATC will clear the airspace for miles around you. You guys are making this too hard.

'Sled

Ditto.

Don't get hung-up on Doc's input/replies, but reference the ATC input.

http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages/6723.html

<fwd> same site

Doc,

I guess it could come down to a "thinking", reasonable, practical and safe course of action, versus, an erudite liability-adverse legal/etymological interpretation of the convoluted obtusely written FARs. "Leaving the clearance limit" - you're not! I think a lot of people/CFIIs have rationalized and developed procedures to address and make sense of the ambiguity, "Leaving the clearance limit", for "closure". My opening statement was not meant to be confrontational but to lampoon the less than clear guidance given by the FAA. I think the following response by Bill English, the author of "Squawk 7600!" - the article I referenced - indicates the PIC will be challenged to use his knowledge and skills and, if necessary, invoke his 91.3 prerogative - all the time flying safely and having other traffic separated from you.

(fwd)

Hi Don

I'd have to go find the article, I have no idea where I have it.

There have been a few FAA interps in the intervening 8 years, mostly having to do with STARS that have vertical "expect" notations. Used to be, under NORDO, you considered those to be ATC instructions to "expect" and should descend to meet them. Apparently that got too confusing with the proliferation of STARS/FMSPs with vertical components, so they now say those don't necessarily count. There may be a few a more, I don't know, haven't kept up on the issue.

Most people (including FAA types) get hung up by missing what the paragraph addresses- when to *leave* the clearance limit. In old Air Force procedure, the CL was often the IAF, *not* the airport, but that's not so in the civilian world (or even the air force anymore). The point of the article is that in the vast majority of flights that sub-paragraph simply does not apply since you never get to the clearance limit in order to leave it.

Of course, since a whole lot of people do think it applies, it de facto is considered, since ATC in reality has no idea what you're going to do. Or even if you are NORDO for some more serious reason and have actually had an emergency and are operating under those provisions.

Let me give you a few thinking points:
1. Expecting the FAA to put forth specific rules for abnormal situations is unrealistic. Thinking is far more important. I'm not saying to not follow the rules, but don't read them like some Talmudic scholar expecting to find exact guidance for every possible situation.
2. Asking FAA ATC for an interpretation of part 91 is a crap shoot. It's not their rule, and they don't even train for it (interestingly enough, the disputed procedure does *not* appear in the ATC handbook- it just says pilots will follow the procedures put forth in the AIM and FARs. Kinda funny eh? If the procedure is so exact, where is the corresponding ATC method of providing the separation? How could you even apply the "rule" at an airport with more than one SIAP?
3. The is nothing that will ruin a controller's day faster than an airplane that pulls a 180 in the middle of a traffic flow!
4. This is an arguement without a reason-- hold, don't hold, it really doesn't matter. ATC will separate you, or not, the best way they can figure.

Bill English
NTSB AS-30
Operational Factors

 

[DC8 Flyer]

never said it was... as far as making it hard... how about coming up with some good reference or source or whatever other than "you guys're making it too hard..." we aren't making anything too hard just simply trying to figure out what to teach to students.

AVE-F

Assignged
Vectored
Expexted
Filed

Im sure we all know the hierachy of how to get where ever we are goin.

How to use it.

If your filed KGFK to KFAR via Victore 171 (think thats airway, been a while), your flightplan would look like this

Dept. KGFK

Route V171

Dest KFAR

ATC Clearance:

Cleared as Filed, maintain 5000' blah blah blah.

Your clearance limit is KFAR, the airport, duh!

ETE :45 minutes

KGFK is about 75 miles north of KFAR, the two VORs that make up V171 are GFK and FAR there are a few fixes on the airway, but thats another argument.

So what you have literally filed is KGFK, Direct GFK, Direct FAR, Direct, KFAR.

Say you loose comes somewhere between GFK and FAR on the airway. You are supposed to fly to FAR then to KFAR (used the AFD to get there). Since KFAR is the clearance limit you would have to hold on the radial and DME fix of off FAR found in the AFD until your ETA or EFC, or amended time given to ATC. To make it simple, you arrive at KFAR (the radial dme fix off of FAR) at :44 from your KGFK departure time. Hold for one minute then proceed to an IAF and start the approach.

Thats how I learned it and taught it. 99% of the time the clearance limit is the airport and most airports have some kind of radial/dme fix associated with a nearby navaid in the AFD or the VOR that makes up the airway is on the field, close enough.

Putting IAF as waypoints on your flightplan wont work, since ATC is going to clear you to the airport unless you file KGFK V171 KFAR, direct ABC (IAF). But that doesnt make much sense, you want to go to KFAR not some point in space.

 

[Vector4fun]

Hope y'all know which ILSs will be in use when ya get here, because half of them will be turned off, guaranteed.

 

[Lead Sled]

...We aren't making anything too hard just simply trying to figure out what to teach to students.

How about "If your clearance limit is an airport, you simply select an appropriate approach, make your way to the IAP, fly it and land. ATC will clear the airspace for miles around you?" What more really needs to be said? Now for another question, what are you guys teaching your students about leaving altitude?

'Sled