Looks like it might be over for VA...

[General Lee]

The US bankruptcy laws have ruined the airline industry. If every airline that went into bankruptcy had instead gone out of business, the airline industry would be a much stronger one. There needs to be business Darwinism, but it's not allowed.

Yeah, let's allow all of the banks in trouble to go out of business RIGHT NOW, along with GM, Ford, and anyone else who is struggling. Yeah, that's the ticket. Let's all buy axes and pitch forks and grab some land and babes while we're at it....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Lear70]

Just like throwing money at them without a viable business plan to CHANGE and show us HOW THEY WON'T DO THE SAME THING AGAIN is doing us any good, either, except to further devalue the U.S. Dollar.

Your answer isn't any better, General.

 

[General Lee]

Just like throwing money at them without a viable business plan to CHANGE and show us HOW THEY WON'T DO THE SAME THING AGAIN is doing us any good, either, except to further devalue the U.S. Dollar.

Your answer isn't any better, General.

Obama inherited this problem. Paulson did a terrible job with the TARP stuff, and nobody can figure out where all that money went. But now you have to cover those industries, otherwise a run will take place on all of the banks, and our country will be in shambles. Sure, there has to be a plan, and I think Obama will hold them to it. Bush and Paulson didn't. Also, the dollar won't fall anymore because every other country is doing the same thing. If the US was the only one with a huge problem, then maybe. Over $50 Trillion has evaporated around the globe, and that is not Obama's fault.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Flopgut]

No...uh, uh,...didn't happen that way. WN sold their fourth airplane to keep operating. And they didn't use/abuse the bankrupcy courts a couple of times like another carrier I know of. And they didn't sign away their rights to operate out of an "exclusive use" airport, like all the others did.

Oh, yeh...and get your arm off from around me...

I meant: get your fourth airplane back.

I'm adverse to the free market schpeal from a WN type.

The WA was like a pre 1930s trust.

 

[The Prussian]

I'm adverse to the free market schpeal from a WN type.

Well, here's some more...

True "free market" is self balancing and self cleansing. Any time you prop up a failure, it corrupts the balance of a free market. All players then have to adjust to this new playing field. We've had more than a few propped up failures.

As this continues, where failure recieves preferred treatment,...success has less and less reward. All companies left on this hobbled playing field, with time, realize less success, and begin to "fail to succeed", and even "succeed to fail". Recognize it?...this is the same, mired playing field we been playing on for quite some time.

And though you may not agree with the free market, I'll go back to my original premise:...we pilots are going to continue to get squeezed until the product is priced to cover it's costs.

And consider your self lucky,...I'm kinda adverse to talking common sense to someone that doesn't display any....

 

[AA717driver]

Either nationalize the airlines (we're mass transit anyway) or remove all restrictions.

So little of this business has been deregulated, it's a joke.

If VA had started up in 2000, no one would have said a word. The LCC's were under the radar until 9/11 and then became the darlings and no one was on this board railing against JetBlue or AirTran (either pre- or post-ValuJet).

Foreign ownership? We have no problem with the Chinese buying our debt (and, therefore owning us) but God forbid a foreigner owning a small airline in the U.S. Barbarians at the gate!

If you're going to complain about foreign ownership, then you'd better step up and complain about global alliances. Oneworld is stealing AA jobs. Same with Sky Team and Star. Or, how about JetBlue and other good old U.S. carriers having their mx done off shore?

Sorry, but the economy is a big stew and the origins of the money and control are so intermingled that you can't know who owns what and who controls who.

TC

 

[JungleJett]

Either nationalize the airlines (we're mass transit anyway) or remove all restrictions.

So little of this business has been deregulated, it's a joke.

If VA had started up in 2000, no one would have said a word. The LCC's were under the radar until 9/11 and then became the darlings and no one was on this board railing against JetBlue or AirTran (either pre- or post-ValuJet).

Foreign ownership? We have no problem with the Chinese buying our debt (and, therefore owning us) but God forbid a foreigner owning a small airline in the U.S. Barbarians at the gate!

If you're going to complain about foreign ownership, then you'd better step up and complain about global alliances. Oneworld is stealing AA jobs. Same with Sky Team and Star. Or, how about JetBlue and other good old U.S. carriers having their mx done off shore?

Sorry, but the economy is a big stew and the origins of the money and control are so intermingled that you can't know who owns what and who controls who.

TC

Common sense and rational thought has little to no business on this site.

..otherwise...well said. :beer:

 

[Flopgut]

Well, here's some more...

True "free market" is self balancing and self cleansing. Any time you prop up a failure, it corrupts the balance of a free market. All players then have to adjust to this new playing field. We've had more than a few propped up failures.

As this continues, where failure recieves preferred treatment,...success has less and less reward. All companies left on this hobbled playing field, with time, realize less success, and begin to "fail to succeed", and even "succeed to fail". Recognize it?...this is the same, mired playing field we been playing on for quite some time.

And though you may not agree with the free market, I'll go back to my original premise:...we pilots are going to continue to get squeezed until the product is priced to cover it's costs.

And consider your self lucky,...I'm kinda adverse to talking common sense to someone that doesn't display any....

I love it when a LUV pilot talks about the need for a level playing field. Unless that field is Love Field.

 

[Horrido]

LOL...what JungleJett said!

 

[clickclickboom]

Either nationalize the airlines (we're mass transit anyway) or remove all restrictions.

So little of this business has been deregulated, it's a joke.

If VA had started up in 2000, no one would have said a word. The LCC's were under the radar until 9/11 and then became the darlings and no one was on this board railing against JetBlue or AirTran (either pre- or post-ValuJet).

Foreign ownership? We have no problem with the Chinese buying our debt (and, therefore owning us) but God forbid a foreigner owning a small airline in the U.S. Barbarians at the gate!

If you're going to complain about foreign ownership, then you'd better step up and complain about global alliances. Oneworld is stealing AA jobs. Same with Sky Team and Star. Or, how about JetBlue and other good old U.S. carriers having their mx done off shore?

Sorry, but the economy is a big stew and the origins of the money and control are so intermingled that you can't know who owns what and who controls who.

TC

Jetblue does not outsource maintenance to TACA AEROMAN in San Salvador along with Us airways. I have not flown planes down there, stayed in the radisson downtown with the awesome free breakfast, or jumpseated home on Delta. I have not bought delta crews cheap duty free liquor because I posess a ticket and crews are not allowed to buy the duty free in the airport.

Jetblue does not have full time inspectors that work there full time.

 

[Monster Buck]

Give me one senario. Just for fun.



D--- right it is a global economy. BTW do you know who or what entity owns your aircraft, how about the insurance, guess what they are all multi national cooperations. Matter of fact, I am certain most aircraft operated by US Airlines are not owned by a purely US company. So why should we make our last stand against globalization when it comes to Airlines, when in reality most of the money is already in the global cash flow?

Chinese Money in our energy market has not much done to undermine your right of voicing your opinion, has it?
And how about the 9 Bil. from the UAE to Citibank. Now I am worried, I just realized Citi holds my mortage. Before I know it I will be called twice daily for prayer and non compliance will be punished with foreclosure.
Thanks for scaring me.
You are right. We need a time machine and go back to --- yah that is a problem. I guess the good old days. When the world was a better palce, do you remember the time, when we fought the Soviets, China was a third world contry, we had a real space program, and America was respected in the world. Yah lets go there.
Look the world has changed for better or worse and we have no choice but to move on.
International ownership might actually safe companies like UAL and USair and make them profitable so Pilots can continue employment and, how knows, they might actually become well paid jobs again.

Hold on a minute there, coming from a jet blue pilot you have a lot of nerve getting on a soap box talking about what other pilots at UsAir and United need to have to get well paid jobs again.

 

[JungleJett]

LOL...what JungleJett said!

Is that a Draaken?

 

[JJET44]

The way this economy is - why would anyone hope that somebody loses their job? I am surprised at some of these comments.

Remember - the fight is against management, not the employess! I am sure we all know at least someone who is at VA who was laid off from our current airline - why would you want them to get laid off!

Metrojet

Metro, These airlines' pop up and spread markets way too thin which drive down prices and profits. They also take advantage of a poor job market and offer jobs at substandard wages to top it off.
Any pilot that willing takes a job with these carriers knows what he/she's getting into and thinks of nobody but him/herself. They hurt us all and get what they deserve.
These Blow-Cost airlines are hurting the industry and not helping it.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Give me one senario. Just for fun.

Ryan Airlines in Europe.... you know the one the wants to charge to use the lavs inflight...

Corp HQ in one country, operating certificate issued by another, labor law and flight crews in yet another country.... that is the wave of the future...

The problem with globalization is the market is wide open, but there are minimal laws to keep it all together.

How is a pilot based in one country supposed to enforce labor law or civil air law against his company who is legal in another country, all while the operating certificate is issued by another country...

this is the end game..... foreign ownership is just the camels nose under the tent...

 

[tzskipper]

Ryan Airlines in Europe.... you know the one the wants to charge to use the lavs inflight...

Corp HQ in one country, operating certificate issued by another, labor law and flight crews in yet another country.... that is the wave of the future...

The problem with globalization is the market is wide open, but there are minimal laws to keep it all together.

How is a pilot based in one country supposed to enforce labor law or civil air law against his company who is legal in another country, all while the operating certificate is issued by another country...

this is the end game..... foreign ownership is just the camels nose under the tent...

With all due respect Rez, the ability of the Association to enforce CBA language in our own court of law is almost non-existent. Ask the MIDEX and ATA crewmembers how their language held up. Foreign ownership should not be as concerning as whipsaw and job security (scope), for if it is, where is (or was) the outrage towards past foreign investment such as NWA/KLM and current foreign investment such as Lufthansa/JetBlue? When you really think about it, is there much difference between foreign investors owning stock, vs. a foreign company such as Airbus or Embraer carrying the note (providing financing) or leases on new aircraft that are delivered to a U.S. carrier?

I think that most all corporate money is a mix of both foreign and domestic investment. That camel's nose has long been under the tent.

Alpa's focus needs to come full circle and protect all U.S. pilot jobs through better CBA language, and spend less time trying to control where the corporate investment comes from.

Fraternally,

Skipper