Looks like I was right about the failed SWA TA

[shearedshaft]

We are not codesharing with regionals now, so any codeshare, regardless of contractual restrictions or lack thereof, are a violation of status quo. You don't seem to understand what section 6 negotiations mean to the company and us. The contract does not have to restrict it right now, if the company does it, its a violation.

So you think that we are protected from domestic codeshare because of status quo?

That's patently insane. No wonder you guys can't do any better than hurl insults. It's because you have no idea what you just got.

Here's a question, Mr. Section Six expert: if status quo prohibits new codeshare, then how was SWA able to announce both West Jet and Volaris while in negotiations?

Codeshare isn't work rule or wages. SWA has been actively seeking codeshare while in negotiations. So now suddenly status quo would make them stop?

You need to do a little more research.

Again: you guys just voted to hand money back to the company and to allow them unlimited domestic codeshare.

And it looks like you're going to get exactly what you asked for.

 

[shootr]

From the current CBA...

"The Company hereby recognizes the Association as the sole collective bargaining representative of the Airline Pilots and Flight Engineers of the Company. For purposes of this Agreement, "Company" will include Southwest Airlines Co., and any subsidiary company, and any wholly owned, or partially owned and controlled company engaged in transporting passengers by air."​

That takes care of the alter-ego problem.

As we know, SL32 is not the strongest agreement we could have gotten, tieing codeshare to growth. However, it only allows codeshare if we've been growing at a 5% rate, "barring circumstances that have a debillitating effect on the Company's operations." In this case, lack of growth is our temporary friend. We have not grown at 5% and the company would have to prove they have "debillitating circumstances". They have not filed bankruptcy. The 737 fleet is fine. The training center has not been shut down. If SWA went to court and won this arbitration on this flimsy of a case, they would lose the goodwill of the pilots, FOREVER.

If Gary wants to go down this road and already has this attitide, do you really think TA1 was going to protect us from him? You don't think he was fully ready to take advantage of the holes in the codeshare language, fully? If Gary is such a good guy, what makes you think he would not take this road? It's just business? To punish us for voting no? If this is the leader we have, you are on the wrong side of the aisle, Sheared.

Now, I'm not so confident this is the road Gary is on. It could be posturing and negotiating 101. Either way, we need to stand our ground.

Grow a set and have some respect for yourself and your profession.

shootr

 

[shearedshaft]

Um, I'm talking domestic codeshare.

Where in there did the contract restrict domestic codeshare, say due to RJs?

 

[firstthird]

w/o 5% growth per year, SL32 restricts all codeshare. we keep explaining it but you keep whining about your 1000-2000 a month.

 

[shearedshaft]

Ok, so we're fine then. SL32 will save the day, forgot about that.

Hello domestic codeshare!

 

[mt2]

Does anyone know -- is WN employing Ford & Harrison to advise it during negotiations ?? If so (or some other expert firm), Gary's letter was meant to lower the expectations of your group thus helping to reach 50% + 1 w/o offering more than TA1.

 

[RDG]

Ok, so we're fine then. SL32 will save the day, forgot about that.

Hello domestic codeshare!

That's right, we are fine. You keep going on and on about something that isn't happening, and won't happen while we are in section six but its ok. Just keep telling us the sky is falling. Every post proves my point with you. You simply don't have the stomach for a fight.

 

[HalinTexas]

A word from ex-ATA about domestic codeshare.

When SWA "bailed" out ATA, ATA had to pull out of city pairs, such as MCO-MDW, that SWA already had service. There was a lot of heartburn at SWAPA over our domestic codeshare. There was a lot more at ATA as it began to pull out of cities it had served for 30 years. It was more prominent after we pulled out of DEN and RSW and SWA moved right in. All of this was done to alleviate issues with the SWAPA contract at the time. This is the status quo. SWA management would then be violating status quo and/or past practices if they were to begin a new domestic codeshare service with someone else. Not to mention "domestic tranquility." All arguments that SWA has the right to begin a domestic "RJ codeshare" are specious and a threat to all future earnings by SWA.

Conversely, it has been demonstrated that SWA management has utter disregard to those that it considers irrelevant. ATA and it's employees were on that list. I suggest that "you" never become irrelevant. Airtran and America West were very relevant in 2004, and that's why they stepped in when they did to sabotage, it has been alleged, the HP-TZ merger. A very shrewd business move.

If SWAPA doesn't get a firm grasp on their futures via scope they will become increasingly irrelevant. Anything you give up now will never be retaken.

 

[R8J]

Shearedshaftless,

Why is Gary and Chuck so desperate to come to a quick agreement if they can do anything they want under SL32? They obviously need wording in Section 1 that they don't already have. They also need relief from the growth requirements of SL32. Do you really think that if they buy Frontier/Lynx or any other company that they will be able to claim debilitating circumstances? Do you really think you would have kept those raises? You sound like a little league batter in a MLB game. Get a grip, and grab you sack "it's on."

R8J

 

[shearedshaft]

"Need relief"? If they needed relief, they would have offered us something we would be willing to consider.

Cutting the money in half and asking for a nearly sure thing of snapping back pay rates and lowering 401(k) matches makes me think they're quite willing to talk...and talk...and talk...

You know as well as I do that they could have cinched this contract five days after it failed. They are loving the cost savings from you guys giving the company your raises. It was nice of you and all, you're down a couple thousand bucks now, so I'm sure the company appreciates it.

The nearest we can grieve SL32 is in January and grievances take a long time to go down the pike. We all know we'll lose it too, but maybe the company isn't willing to take the chance. I suspect we'll get a contract we can get our teeth into round-about December 29th of this year.

Minus, of course, the money you guys are handing back to the company. That money is gone. As is probably our domestic codeshare protections, but I don't have any evidence of that yet. Maybe the company will do an about-face and hand those back to us.

Maybe not.

 

[GuppyWN]

How do you know we will lose a SL32 grievance? EXACTLY?

 

[redflyer65]

Mt2 is correct.

Gary is just trying to lower the bar. It's called negotiations guys. Would your really expect him just to roll over on a new agreement?

I am beginning to believe that Gary and Chuck are wanting a contract before most of the pilot group does. We'll see...

 

[shearedshaft]

I don't know we're going to lose it, I just assume we are. It was written with loopholes (on purpose). Have you read it recently? I can think of three different ways we would lose.

But if you read my post more carefully, I suspect the company won't let it go to a grievance, but will instead settle a contract immediately before, minus the money you're giving them each month.

Do you have kids? If so, it's nice that you gave $2,000 to your management instead of putting it in their college fund. And that's only in the last two months.

 

[walkthasky]

Do you have kids? If so, it's nice that you gave $2,000 to your management instead of putting it in their college fund. And that's only in the last two months.

No I don't have kids. I was happy to "give" my 2 g's back to mgmnt!(oh that was sarcastic shaftsmoker!) Geez frickin cry baby still doesn't get it...

 

[shearedshaft]

I was happy to "give" my 2 g's back to mgmnt!(

Soon to be $3,000, then $4,000 and at the end of the year, $12,000.

That's a lot of coin. It would actually pay a mortgage.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Shearedshaft,

If you voted yes on the first TA because of all of that money, will you vote No on the next TA if the raise is gone?

 

[shearedshaft]

I didn't vote yes because of all the money. I just recognized that the company was offering a whole lot of compensation for changes I considered minor. The changes I didn't consider minor were the new codeshare provisions that would have kept RJs from flying SWA passengers domestically.

I also liked the rigged open time, the overfly pay and the 401(k) match. I didn't like the lances getting screwed, but I also figured that it was going to happen whether it was in the contract or not, which appears to be correct. I didn't like the ELITT changes, but after digging into them, they weren't anywhere near as draconian as folks claimed, certainly not worth $1,000 per month.

So to answer your question, I will look at all of the details, weigh them against what I see going on in the world and vote accordingly. It could be yes, it could be no.

I was not a strong yes voter on the last contract, but looking backwards, I should have been, as you can tell, I have come to the conclusion that we screwed ourselves at the worst possible moment.

 

[R8J]

Wow, I don't know how you even get out of bed with all the doom and gloom. Take a deep breath and let the process play out. I never thought I was an optimist until I read this thread.

 

[Dash Power]

Soon to be $3,000, then $4,000 and at the end of the year, $12,000.

That's a lot of coin. It would actually pay a mortgage.

Patience grasshopper. Patience.

 

[737tanker]

The changes I didn't consider minor were the new codeshare provisions that would have kept RJs from flying SWA passengers domestically

The holes in the TA were so large that RJs could have been flying SWA passengers the day after the contract was signed. One hole was all Gary had to do was buy an airline that had a codeshare agreement. Another was SWA just had to get a majority of the SWAPA BOD to agree to allow the codeshare. As weak as SL32 is, it is stronger than what was in the TA.