Looking for Info on Pinnacle

[ProPilot5]

Looking for information on pinnacle. Anyone from the company that can give their 2 cents worth? Good vs. bad Management take on pilot group...

Bases? Where do initials go?

What is spuring on all of the growth being talked about?

First and second year FO pay? / What is min. hrs per month? / Average hrs?

From what I hear 85hrs is norm. What is per dium pay?

Thanks in advance.

 

[a-v-8er]

Looking for information on pinnacle. Anyone from the company that can give their 2 cents worth? Good vs. bad Management take on pilot group...

Bases? Where do initials go?

Memphis, Minneapolis and Detroit. Memphis is senior, the other two are where most newbies go.

What is spuring on all of the growth being talked about?

More routes, more new aircraft.

First and second year FO pay? / What is min. hrs per month? / Average hrs?

www.airlinepilotpay.com / Guarantee is 75 per month, average line holder probably around 80-85 per month.

From what I hear 85hrs is norm. What is per dium pay?

See previous question and per diem is paid per hour away from domicile at something like $1.40 an hour (correct me if I'm wrong).

Thanks in advance.

 

[Flying Colors]

To increase crew utilization the average line is approx 90 hours for FO's.
Captains are bidding separate lines where the average is 85 hours.

 

[DTWFO]

To answer one of your questions: Management sees the pilot group as a bunch of greedy, overpaid, underworked whiners, whose job is easy. And if you think I'm being dramatic, the last part of the above quote came directly out of the mouth of our CEO.

Our management spares no expense at spending a million to save a penny, stabbing you in the back at every turn, trying to take your money away whenever possible, finding new interpretations of the FAA rest requirments, and generally harrassing you to death on a daily basis.

The best analogy would be a chicken with it's head cut off running around in a circle behind the scenes; while its head is out jetting around the world collecting awards and telling everyone how great our People are! It's a good thing the people that actually make the money for them are so great to be around on a daily basis, otherwise it wouldn't even be worth putting up with.

 

[Lear70]

Yep... that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Per diem is $1.59 per hour as of May '04.

F/O pay is approximately $2,200 per month, INCLUDING per diem and flying 90 hours. The hour average is only different for F/O's through the end of the year... if you're buying that it's for crew utilization, I'd suggest that you quit drinking the Kool Air; it's simply to keep the Captains that are close to timing out further away from that goal and to increase the company's ability to junior man and extend people over the holidays; lines will go back to paired in Jan or Feb.

Growth is about to come to a screeching halt in May unless we get more aircraft which is 50/50...

If you really want more information, do a search on here under "Pinnacle question(s)", we hashed all this about three weeks ago (or just keep going forward in pages, you'll find it eventually, it's a long thread every time - things aren't very rosy here as far as morale is concerned).

 

[LoveGun]

Are you guys still hiring street captains? If so, what is reserve like, and how long will a street captain have to sit reserve? If I could be based in Minni and hired on as captain I might have to check out pinnacle a lot closer.

 

[dondk]

Yep... that's pretty much it in a nutshell.

Per diem is $1.59 per hour as of May '04.

F/O pay is approximately $2,200 per month, INCLUDING per diem and flying 90 hours. The hour average is only different for F/O's through the end of the year... if you're buying that it's for crew utilization, I'd suggest that you quit drinking the Kool Air; it's simply to keep the Captains that are close to timing out further away from that goal and to increase the company's ability to junior man and extend people over the holidays; lines will go back to paired in Jan or Feb.

Growth is about to come to a screeching halt in May unless we get more aircraft which is 50/50...

Per Diem of $1.59? did I miss yet another memo? Maybe then I can afford to eat 1 meal a day....

FO pay requires you to have a sugar momma or daddy or a second job that pays equal to or more than flying the line. The second year FO pay is slightly better but your really are not able to survive until 3rd year pay AND 90 hour credit.

My .02 on the split pairings.. someone in planning gets this bright idea once or twice a year. It lasts about 2 months or until planes are stuck at the gate because all 3 crew members are coming from different directions. After enough delay's/cancellations/crew members going 30/7. they revert back to the old way. You'd think they do this during the summer.. but NOOOO they wait each year until winter to try this out.

We should be able to get enough CA's to make the holiday's interesting. Getting those 6-8 guys back off of the negioating table is really going to make a difference.

Street Captain's.. they are currently "polling" each new hire class (2 times a month, 25 each class) to get people to "bite". The latest wonder is FO's on thier check ride, are being "offered" a Captain's ride. To answer the question about reserve... A "street" captain will be about Seniority number 1000.. There are about 150 guys/gals between Seniority 450 and 1000 who have upgraded, the rest have not... Do the math and that should answer the question...

 

[LoveGun]

Thanks for the street captain info. But I still don't get it, they hire you as an FO and maybe you get offered captain in ground school maybe you don't? That's sort of fishy. What is time to upgrade if you don't go the street captain route? Does reserve totally suck or just kind of suck? What's you're first year captain pay? The reason I am asking all these questions is I am about to be downgraded here at PSA. Thanks for anymore info.

 

[SkyBoy1981]

I looked into Pinnacle....until I found out that they pay NOTHING during training. That alone was enough to persuade me not to send them a resume.

 

[flap operator]

Skyboy1981... look into Mesaba if you want a red tail job. 75/hr guaranetee in training, full hotel paid in a long term stay hotel, a seniority # the first day of class, your ID first day of class and starting pay about $23/hr. WE're hiring in to both fleets in all 4 bases.

FO

 

[Lear70]

You mean you're not getting the same deal I am? Guess you need to "jump on the grenade" more often down in MEM. D*mn... too many flashbacks from my previous employer... $1.40 is the correct figure - shows how closely I watch my per diem, doesn't it? (oops)

Reserve forever for street captains, or at least several years (3 to 5). Reserve TOTALLY sucks unless you live in your domicile, then you get to sit at home while being paid... If you commute, it's just one step shy of pure hell.

The whole "hired as an F/O but offered Captain in class" thing is simply a way for them to avoid any potential lawsuits from "promises" made during an interview - I think a couple street captains sued them on this point since all of us were told we'd only sit reserve for 90 days and they'd keep hiring street captains indefinitely... yeah, right. I didn't buy the kool-aid (although I did hope they'd hire enough to get me off reserve - no such luck), but evidently some guys did...

Upgrades? Not for the next several years unless we get awarded more aircraft. Plain and simple.

Flap operator is right,,, unless you really want to chase that "Street Captain (and reserve forever) or "Upgrade in 90 days (and reserve forever)" carrot, I'd go with Mesaba. It'll be 3 years before we get a contract and it'll probably require a strike to get what we deem "liveable"... you'll get a (somewhat) liveable wage right off the bat at Mesaba and, although I believe we'll pass their rates considerably post-negotiation, it would probably take you five years here at PCL (including post-negotiation raises) to equal what you'd make at Mesaba over the same time period (not to mention their trips and line construction and your overall QOL over the next three years would be considerably better as a new-hire).

Good luck!

 

[flap operator]

Lear70 (RM - yes I know who you are) is that really you? Are you actually advocating that the new Mesaba contract is actually something decent? Is this the same Lear70 that basically called us Mesa, sell outs and a bunch of primadonna crybabies in the past? Well, I guess it didn't take long to realize our contract ISN'T THAT BAD. =)

I wish you the best of luck and just like you did for us, we'll be there to support you every step of the way. No matter what the outcome.



FO

 

[Lear70]

Of course you know who I am... I've posted my name, address, and phone number on here several times.

And just to set the record straight, I never said that your contract wasn't an improvement over ours - it just isn't NEARLY ENOUGH of an improvement. What I said was that an F/O starting out at Mesaba will make more and have a better quality of life over a three year starting period (assuming no upgrade at either company) than they will at Pinnacle, no ifs, ands, or buts.

There are a few things in your contract that I like, such as the 100% cancellation pay (would have saved me $60 this month) and the 150% trip pickup (which would be great if I wasn't already blocked to 92 hours, crediting 115 with 13 days off), and the new-hire stuff plus training improvements, but overall I wouldn't have signed it, not without a duty rig and about a 20% increase in pay.

I still believe that my W-2 at the end of the month would be within 2% of a Mesaba 4-year CA on the 50-seat jet rate when compared block for block, credit for credit and since I believe that we are paid sub-standardly, I therefore still believe the Mesaba contract to be sub-standard when taken as a whole.

Thanks for the well-wishes and commitment to help; we're a LONG way off from needing that help since the company will obviously stall and drag things out as long as they can, but it WILL come... management can run, but they can't hide!

 

[smokey999]

Skyboy1981... look into Mesaba if you want a red tail job. 75/hr guaranetee in training, full hotel paid in a long term stay hotel, a seniority # the first day of class, your ID first day of class and starting pay about $23/hr. WE're hiring in to both fleets in all 4 bases.

FO

Just curious how it works at Mesaba. Are newhires actuall getting to bid MSP and keep it? If so, that really sucks for guys higher in senority who may want to bid back to MSP. More info would be appreciated!!

 

[flap operator]

Smokey - sinece our new contract was signed we've been hiring mainly for attritian, but we did have a couple of classes that were "large" to cover staffing after the new contract changed the model. Alot of those guys bid to MSP after a few months, and got it. This is on the avro and I would imagine tha same thing on the saab. Both the avro and saab have been super senior in MSP. And for the most part they still are, but for my first 3 years at XJ I couldn't even hold MSP. Now throughout 2004 I've, been able to hold a line with with about 10 people below me. Alot of new hires in the spring are line holders, while many FOs have spent 3+ years on reserve. It's kinda weird if you ask me.

Senior guys who want MSP can reflect that on their "preference bid." So, if there is a vacancy in MSP and somebody has that on their pref bid, they'll get it. Pilots currently on the line would fill those new vacancies first, then the new hires would get what's left over. So, a new hire could conceivably get MSP. Either right away or in a few months, but you wouldn't have to worry about stepping on anyones toes. You'd get it because nobody else wanted it at the time.

Hope that helps.

FO

 

[skippy767]

LEAR 70- Just for my review when we say 90 day upgrade. I thought you need 500 in type? or is it true you can upgrade in 90 days by 3500 total 1000 turbine 2000 multi. IS that true?

Also where are you based?

 

[Lear70]

I'm DTW-based, although I sport bid around, I'll be going back to DTW and staying as soon as I can hold it again.

Short answer: you don't have to have ANY CRJ time to hold Captain here as long as you hold the flight times you listed. We have several pilots who were here as F/O's less than 60 days and had no previous CRJ time who are now in Captain class.

The 90 days WAS a good figure... about a month ago. Every week that goes by, if you're not already here and in class, your odds of getting a Captain slot anytime in the near future dwindle dramatically.

 

[Chest Rockwell]

DTWFO,
We all deserve more, but when you put being a CRJ FO into perspective over the last 15 years in the regional industry, two grand a month is not bad. It was not that long ago that new hires at several regionals were getting $1,200 a month (or less) flying much more demanding aircraft (unpressurized, no autopilot or FD). I respect were you are coming from, but we often forget how much better the industry is compared to a short time ago.

Skyboy,
It may be shortsighted to choose a company over training pay. The opportunity fo advancement(upgrade) would be much more important ,if your goals were to move on to a major. If the regional ended up being your carrier for the long-term, whether or not you received pay during training would be of negligable impact (assuming you have a few bucks saved up for food during training). It is easy for us to allow issues such as these to allow emotion to guide our decisions, rather than sound judgement. I have to admit, I was fortunate to never having to train for free, although minimum wage @ $3.35/hr until taking the checkride was pretty close.

 

[sf3boy]

Lear 70,
I agree with ya that the Mesaba contract is no where near what it should have been with pay for 50 seaters and the Avro. It is a good thing we don't have the RJ's, so we can't say that we are the worst paid. However Saab pay (65% of the fleet) is outstanding.

It's funny, all the things that you said you liked in our contract.....well those items were already in our 1996 contract. Nothing new there.

Skyboy,
It is true that it would be shortsighted to limit your choice of airline on training pay. Look to the future. When I got hired at Mesaba, there were only a couple of more Avro's to come online. I have been an FO for over five years with no upgrade in sight. Pinnacle has around 25 more airplanes to receive, you do the math. They might get more, but I believe they will not. So if you're looking at being a career regional FO, here is my situation:
5+ years
40k/year (includes per diem)
Avg 15 days off/mo (some weekends off)
Avg 82 hr/mo
3 weeks of vacation

 

[Lear70]

It's funny, all the things that you said you liked in our contract.....well those items were already in our 1996 contract. Nothing new there.

Wow. I didn't know that. I went to the roadshow in DTW and your MEC made it sound like those were all "new and improved" things that would add 8 to 10% over your current pay.

If they were already there and weren't real improvements and things you would have had anyway, it makes me wonder why the TA passed?

I agree the Saab rates are great, our management is simply trying to use your rates, Mesa, etc, as our "peer" rates and trying to ignore Air Whiskey (pre-concession), Comair, and COEX's soon-to-be-signed increases, which we KNEW would happen when your TA was ratified. Since your CRJ rates were lower than ours at DOS and are now within 1% and Mesa and others have EVEN LOWER rates, our management is saying we're comparably OVER PAYED (DTW joke) and they want CONCESSIONS on work rules (duty limits, etc).

Like I said, it's going to be a LONG negotiating process...

 

[DTWFO]

DTWFO,
We all deserve more, but when you put being a CRJ FO into perspective over the last 15 years in the regional industry, two grand a month is not bad. It was not that long ago that new hires at several regionals were getting $1,200 a month (or less) flying much more demanding aircraft (unpressurized, no autopilot or FD). I respect were you are coming from, but we often forget how much better the industry is compared to a short time ago.

You are quite right, the aircraft are much easier to fly and make the job simpler. However, I wasn't referring to my pay rate in my previous post. I was referring to our managements inability to run an airline correctly and their negative attitude toward the pilots. Although if you want to talk about money, I made 1200 a month when I started here and that was only 2 years ago. And I still barely make 2000 a month now!! And you're right, two grand a month is not bad if you are single, live in Detroit, don't commute, and have no life, but I have a hard time believing that someone can support a family on that without some kind of government assistance. I agree with what you are saying, but I was just referring to our management..

 

[scabseeker]

I still believe that my W-2 at the end of the month would be within 2% of a Mesaba 4-year CA on the 50-seat jet rate when compared block for block, credit for credit and since I believe that we are paid sub-standardly, I therefore still believe the Mesaba contract to be sub-standard when taken as a whole.

Actually you're much closer than 2% at the end of the month being that:

1) There are no 50 seat jets at Mesaba.

2) There are no 4 year captains at Mesaba.

 

[CRJDog]

DTWFO,
We all deserve more, but when you put being a CRJ FO into perspective over the last 15 years in the regional industry, two grand a month is not bad. It was not that long ago that new hires at several regionals were getting $1,200 a month (or less) flying much more demanding aircraft (unpressurized, no autopilot or FD). I respect were you are coming from, but we often forget how much better the industry is compared to a short time ago.

Rockwell you are a **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**in idiot! 2K a month is deplorable no matter how you look at it. Especially when you are flying a 30 million dollar jet with your family on it.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

I agree.. I get paid 200 bucks a day as a 21 y/old BE-200 F/O.. go figure..


G'luck folks!

 

[I.P. Freley]

I agree.. I get paid 200 bucks a day as a 21 y/old BE-200 F/O.. go figure.

...and someone running a spray plane makes more than even that. There's always gonna be a better-paying job than a regional. The point is you're not going to get a job at a major with only BE-200 time or doing loop-de-loops in an Ag Cessna, ya know?

The bottom-end pay scale sucks industry-wide, but it's a means to an end.

 

[Flyingdutchman]

...The point is you're not going to get a job at a major with only BE-200 time ya know?

I wouldn't put any money on it, if I where you..

FD

 

[Lear70]

Actually you're much closer than 2% at the end of the month being that:

1) There are no 50 seat jets at Mesaba.

2) There are no 4 year captains at Mesaba.

Nope, sure aren't now, but someday there undoubtedly will be both. Then, when you compare rates, maybe you'll understand what I'm talking about... then again, most guys with that type of mentality won't EVER get it.

I just hope there aren't too many people like that in OUR pilot group...

 

[I.P. Freley]

I wouldn't put any money on it, if I where you..

Beg pardon?