Long range duty times question

[G550Driver]

For all you long range operators out there I have a few questions.

What is your company policy on using more than 2 pilots?

What is the magical number of flight hours to start adding pilots? How about duty day length etc....

I ask because we have a trip from KJAC to WADD (Bali) coming up and we are trying to figure out how to make it work. We are looking at taking 3 guys, repositioning pilots, etc... We have been using 3 pilots for trips like Vienna to Buenos Aires (16 hours) and it has worked well. This is our first REALLY REALLY long trip.

How do you log the time with more than two pilots? If you take three guys and the flight is 12 hours does everyone log 8 or 12?

Lastly can anyone lead me to regulations or some kind of articles for this type of flying under Part 91.

 

[Lead Sled]

For all you long range operators out there I have a few questions.

What is your company policy on using more than 2 pilots?

What is the magical number of flight hours to start adding pilots? How about duty day length etc....

I ask because we have a trip from KJAC to WADD (Bali) coming up and we are trying to figure out how to make it work. We are looking at taking 3 guys, repositioning pilots, etc... We have been using 3 pilots for trips like Vienna to Buenos Aires (16 hours) and it has worked well. This is our first REALLY REALLY long trip.

How do you log the time with more than two pilots? If you take three guys and the flight is 12 hours does everyone log 8 or 12?

Lastly can anyone lead me to regulations or some kind of articles for this type of flying under Part 91.

FWIW, I've tried it about every possible way. My least favorite way is to carry the 3rd pilot on board - it's just too easy to end up with 3 tired guys if you know what I mean. if I were flying your trip, I'd probably look at the possibility of prepositioning a crew at PHNL and doing the swap while you're refueling. As far as loging time goes, we only logged the time when you were sitting in one of the two front seats.

'Sled

 

[hawkerjet]

I'd do the same as above only make the stop in Kona.

 

[semperfido]

i am assuming you have a crew rest compartment. more than 10 hrs is a no brainer with 3 guys (it is what that plane is designed for). repositioning is nicer but a lot more expensive. about 18 hrs duty is max for 3, if more then repo is a must. log whatever you want- i won't tell

 

[G100driver]

i don't know anyone that logs time anymore- who cares.

Yes, but the airlines love the time.

Gotta go with Sled on this one. Sounds like a 2 full crew trip with a crew change in HI. Hawkerjet does have a point about Kona. It is much quicker than PHNL or PHOG and they do have customs for your return trip.

As far as the cost goes ... who cares. If you can afford to fly a G-550 you can afford the extra expense of crews. At this level of the game an extra 10K for crew repositioning and the like is nothing when it comes to safety.

 

[AA717driver]

We go 10.5 with 2. If you have to stop for gas, I'd go with the pre-positioning option. Cost of doing business. We're doing LAX-Nagoya and Beijing-Genoa next week with 3. The longest is 11:10.

Getting to stay in Kona waiting for the return would be tough duty... TC

 

[semperfido]

As far as the cost goes ... who cares. If you can afford to fly a G-550 you can afford the extra expense of crews. At this level of the game an extra 10K for crew repositioning and the like is nothing when it comes to safety.

In a perfect world i suppose you are right. BUT not everyone looks at it the way you do. and it isn't all about money. adding a 4th takes another guy off the roster as well. the plane has a crew rest compartment and is designed to fly for 13 hrs. too much for two but OK for 3. about 16-17 hrs of flight time in a day would be acceptable for 3. there is a lot of grey area and you won't find regs in 91 for this type of operation.

 

[TundraT]

G550Driver you have my number........I won't want you to suffer alone. We can cry over a beer or two while on the road.

 

[G100driver]

In a perfect world i suppose you are right. BUT not everyone looks at it the way you do. and it isn't all about money. adding a 4th takes another guy off the roster as well. the plane has a crew rest compartment and is designed to fly for 13+ hrs. too much for two but OK for 3. about 16-17 hrs would be acceptable for 3.

I hear you. I was not looking to challenge the way you run your flight department.

16-17 sounds reasonable provided the 3rd crew member can really rest. I do not know what flight time would be to Bali but I would guess in the neighborhood of 17-18 hours. You I am sure look at what time are you departing. Are you departing at 7AM or 9PM local. All of these things will come into play on whether or not you have a 2nd full crew or a 3rd crew member.

 

[semperfido]

I hear you. I was not looking to challenge the way you run your flight department.

I don't run anything, except my mouth.

 

[GVFlyer]

For all you long range operators out there I have a few questions.

What is your company policy on using more than 2 pilots?

What is the magical number of flight hours to start adding pilots? How about duty day length etc....

I ask because we have a trip from KJAC to WADD (Bali) coming up and we are trying to figure out how to make it work. We are looking at taking 3 guys, repositioning pilots, etc... We have been using 3 pilots for trips like Vienna to Buenos Aires (16 hours) and it has worked well. This is our first REALLY REALLY long trip.

How do you log the time with more than two pilots? If you take three guys and the flight is 12 hours does everyone log 8 or 12?

Lastly can anyone lead me to regulations or some kind of articles for this type of flying under Part 91.

We use the Flight Safety Foundation guidelines. Over 12 hours we put a third pilot on board and work 4 hours on - 2 hours off - rotating to the crew rest area for our 2 hours off.

http://www.flightsafety.org/home.html

GV

 

[G550Driver]

We are leaving KJAC at 0900 local.

We are initially planning KJAC-PHNL-WADD. It looks like KJAC to PHNL is around 7+00. Then PHNL to WADD is around 12 to 13 depending on winds.

We will have to take 3 pilots from PHNL to WADD because after 8 days in Bali we are flying to EDNY (Freidershofen, Germany (SP?)) for three days with a stop for fuel in the Dubai. Then EDNY to KSLC.

We are looking at 2 guys flying from KJAC to PHNL. One guy gets off at PHNL and airlines home. The other two guys meet the airplane in PHNL and fly with one of the original pilots on to WADD.

In the G550 we do have a crew rest area the problem is we'll have 3 pilots, a maintenance guy and a flight attendant plus 8 pax. It's a little tight up front with 3 pilots and a maintence guy hanging out. Plus trust me everyone starts eyeballing that bed after about 8 hours of flying.

I'd like to thank everyone for the advice. It's nice to get positive feed back.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

In a perfect world i suppose you are right. BUT not everyone looks at it the way you do. and it isn't all about money. adding a 4th takes another guy off the roster as well. the plane has a crew rest compartment and is designed to fly for 13 hrs. too much for two but OK for 3. about 16-17 hrs of flight time in a day would be acceptable for 3. there is a lot of grey area and you won't find regs in 91 for this type of operation.

16-17 of flight time...ouch...seems long...

I read that as about 20 of duty - at least. (I am assuming a 2hr show for an Intl trip and 1 hr after to button it up)

As many times as I do the 3 pilot long duty day (we do MAX 18hrs duty) you still wind up with 3 tired a$$ pilots. The crew rest area is simply not.. "rest"...IMHO. Rest is a quiet hotel room.

I hate to do the airline repo thing myself, but I do think its simply the best, safest option..

Do a 20hr day once, the light is green from then on....

 

[Jack Schitt]

The guy that gets stuck in the tube for 18+ hours is really going to smell like schitt by the time you get to Bali. Bring the extra-strength b.o. juice!

 

[semperfido]

16-17 of flight time...ouch...seems long...

I read that as about 20 of duty - at least. (I am assuming a 2hr show for an Intl trip and 1 hr after to button it up)

As many times as I do the 3 pilot long duty day (we do MAX 18hrs duty) you still wind up with 3 tired a$$ pilots. The crew rest area is simply not.. "rest"...IMHO. Rest is a quiet hotel room.

I hate to do the airline repo thing myself, but I do think its simply the best, safest option..

Do a 20hr day once, the light is green from then on....

You are correct in everything you said. However, if a particular Flight Dept had a need to do such a trip about once a year we would most probably accomodate them. I wouldn't do it on a regular basis.

 

[semperfido]

The guy that gets stuck in the tube for 18+ hours is really going to smell like schitt by the time you get to Bali. Bring the extra-strength b.o. juice!

i think they were going to spend the night so it would be 3 guys for 12. i would leave the maint guy behind. overkill. 5 crew is bodering on the absurd. it is just too tight and a circus.

 

[G4G5]

We use common sence. I have done it enough to know that their is no scientific answer.

Our rule of thumb takes into account a variety of options:
We do 2 pilots up to 14 hours IF their is only one leg or less then 3 time zone changes (North/ South). Multiple legs/Multiple time zones above 12 hrs we add a 3rd pilot up until 18. Then we do 2 crews.

This is not scientific we switch crews in ANC on flights to and from Asia (based in NY)

It all comes down to common sence. I have done Narita to White Plains with 2 pilots (our third became ill and was forced to stay in Tokyo). All I did was call the CEO and tell him that he could not get the slot he wanted and that he would have to leave at 8am. Which equated to an all day light flight home with the two pilots working on a normal body clock.

I have also done ANC-Narita-Singapore on the back side of the clock, all night flying, on my circadian low, but I had 3 pilots.

Their is no right answer. It's common sence. You need to look at all of the information you have and trust the crews.

The biggest things in my opinion are:
Do as much flying during the daylight as you can.
Do as much flying on your normal body clock as you can (this requires some planning)
If you think you might need 3 pilots, take 3 pilots. Clearing customs takes longer then you think, or pax stuck traffic, or a late running meeting. Murphy's law.
If you are taking 3 pilots and have to stop for fuel or an additional pax. Preposition one pilot to the tech stop. One alert pilot is better then 3 tired pilots. Example NYC-London-Cairo. If have done this a couple of times. Depart NY at 8 pm fly all night, only to find Stanstead and/or Luton below mins, winding up in Farnbourough. Then waiting for a pax to arrive, after waiting for the limo in morning London traffic. Then departing in the morning fog to Cairo.

Flying all night with 3 tired pilots made no sence but we were "legal". The next time out we sent a pilot ahead to London. He got a solid nights sleep, met us at the airport and flew the leg to Cairo.


If you are stoping for fuel. Try to work a crew change into the tech stop. I understand that you may not be able to get a contract pilot or one of your normal line pilots may be on vacation. Things like this happen. Everytime I have been painted into a corner I have gone to the principal and asked him/her to adjust their travel times for safety. I have never been turned down. Use common sence.

 

[G550Driver]

Awesome feed back.

Has anyone actually flown to Bali from PHNL or Coldbay, Alaska? We have been looking a both places. Crew change is easier at PHNL.

We don't normally do trips that are this long. We only fly a few international trips a year. This year it happens to be on the other side of the planet where no one in our department has been before.

 

[rice]

Awesome feed back.

Has anyone actually flown to Bali from PHNL or Coldbay, Alaska? We have been looking a both places. Crew change is easier at PHNL.

We don't normally do trips that are this long. We only fly a few international trips a year. This year it happens to be on the other side of the planet where no one in our department has been before.

All more the reason for doing a complete crew swap during your tech stop. Been down the road of the three pilot deal too many times and it never seemed like there was fresh and alert one amongst us. Last time one of the crew actually became ill (due to fatigue) and we nearly missed the next leg of the trip. I'll bet once you run the numbers, prepositioning the relief crew will only add 5% or less to the total cost of the trip. Pretty cheap price for the added safety benefit in my book.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Awesome feed back.

Has anyone actually flown to Bali from PHNL or Coldbay, Alaska? We have been looking a both places. Crew change is easier at PHNL.

We don't normally do trips that are this long. We only fly a few international trips a year. This year it happens to be on the other side of the planet where no one in our department has been before.

without a doubt crew change in PHNL. Its painless and quick and the weather is predictable.

We do a lot of positioning through PANC (like most departments) and there are plenty of times when I think I might not get in there!

Alaska...Hawaii....no brainer there!!!

Good Luck!