Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

Logging Time???

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Just a quick note on this topic. Neither a PA-28R-201 or PA-28R-200 are high performance. The 201 is not the horsepower of the engine. The last digit differentiates the different model, (multi-tapered vs. Hersey bar wing) not the horsepower.

One other thing, most turbocharged singles will have service ceilings of greater than FL250. The T206H for instance, I believe is certified to FL270. The high altitude endorsement is only required to act as PIC of pressurized aircraft certified above FL250.

It is my opinion that it is perfectly legal to log the time as long as you were the sole manipulator of an aircraft you were rated in. There are many, many discussions on this in the archives and the pro-pilot site.

The King Airs that require the type ratings are the 300/350 and some specially modified 200s, I believe, with MGTOW greater than 12,500 pounds.

-PJ
 
I don't have a high altitude sign off and I've logged 1400 hours in Brasilias and 328s. Only the PIC needs it as stated above.
 
To summarize,

Sure you could legal log the flight under Part61 PIC BUT the real question is should you?

I knew a girl who would ride right seat in Navajo's and King Airs. She didnt have a Part135 SIC checkout and the PIC wasnt an MEI but she logged every **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** minute of it because "hey, Part61 says I can!"
A year later she went on over 20 regional interviews and guess what there favorite question was? Tell me your ITT limits on the King Air? Or whats flaps speed on a Navajo? Lets see your Part135 SIC lettter. She is still flight instructing.

Your choice.
 
Deftone45075 -

You are wrong about logging PIC time. Under certain circumstances, it is perfectly legal to LOG PIC time even if you are not qualified to ACT as PIC, for example, due to a lack of an "endorsement". Before this will make sense to you, you have fully understand the strange and confusing concept in the FAR's that there is a distinct difference between LOGGING of PIC time, and actually ACTING as the PIC of an aircraft.

There is an extensive discussion of the concepts of logging of PIC time vs. acting as PIC at the following link:

www.propilot.com/doc/logging2.html

It's pretty interesting, you ought to read it.
 
Remember, ratings go on your certificate, endorsements go in your logbook. Are you "rated" for an aircraft? Look on your pilot's certificate, and see if you meet all the requirements (category, class, and type if required). If the answer = "yes", then you are rated for the aircraft.

What does that mean? It means you meet the requirements of 61.51(e)(1)(i) to LOG PIC time when you are the sole manipulator of the controls. 61.51(e)(1) says nothing about endorsements being required to log PIC time.

Can you ACT as PIC, with regard to endorsements? This is where 61.31 comes in. If you are missing any of the required endorsements for the aircraft in question, then even though you might be legal to LOG PIC time, you cannot ACT as PIC. In this case, you must have another pilot on board who CAN act as PIC.

Here are the appropriate references from the regs, along with a legal interpretation from the AFS board.

61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.
(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes.
(1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training.

(Note, the above refers to ACTing as PIC and also references an entry in the LOGBOOK, not your certificate. Emphasis in reference is mine)

61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which
the pilot is rated;

(Note, rated, not endorsed. Again, emphasis in reference is mine.)

Finally, here is the interpretation from the FAA legal eagle.

"14 CFR section 61.51(e) governs the logging of pilot-in-command time. This section provides, in pertinent part, that a private pilot may log pilot-in-command time for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated. (Emphasis added)

The term "rated," as used under 14 CFR section 61.51(e), refers to the pilot holding the appropriate aircraft ratings (category, class, and type, if a type rating is required). These ratings are listed under 14 CFR section 61.5 and are placed on the pilot certificate.

Therefore, based on the scenario given to Mr. Lynch, a private pilot may log pilot-in-command time, in a complex or high performance airplane, for those portions of the flight when he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls because the aircraft being operated is single-engine land and the private pilot holds a single-engine land rating. Note, while the private pilot may log this time as pilot-in-command time in accordance with 14 CFR section 61.51(e), he or she may not act as the pilot in command unless he or she has the appropriate endorsement as required under 14 CFR section 61.31.

14 CFR section 61.31 requires a person to have an endorsement from an authorized instructor before he or she may act as pilot in command of certain aircraft (a complex airplane, a high performance airplane, a pressurized airplane capable of operating at high altitudes, or a tailwheel airplane). These endorsements are not required to log pilot-in-command time under 14 CFR section 61.51(e).

As you stated in your letter, there is a distinction between acting as pilot in command and logging pilot-in-command time. In order to act as pilot in command, the pilot who has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight, a person must be properly rated in the aircraft and be properly rated and authorized to conduct the flight. In order to log pilot-in-command time, a person who is the sole manipulator of the controls only needs to be properly rated in the aircraft."
 
Just because a regulation doesn't specifically forbid a certain action doesn't mean it allows it. For example, 61.51 doesn't say anything about recent experience requirements. However, you still can't act as PIC unless you are current. Just as 61.51 doesn't say anything about logging time in a high performance aircraft.
 
61.51 doesn't say anything about recent experience requirements
But 61.57 does. Quote the paragraph that prohibits the logging of PIC time in a high performance airplane without the high performance endorsement.
 
>>>>Just because a regulation doesn't specifically forbid a certain action doesn't mean it allows it.


Ummm, actually, yes it does. That's one of the principles of our legal system: In order for something to be against the law, there must be a law (statute, regulation, administrative code, whatever) making it against the law.

If not, then we would be subject to following unwritten laws, and if the laws are unwritten, well, how are we to know what they are?

>>>>>For example, 61.51 doesn't say anything about recent experience requirements.

Right ..... so???? 61.51 regulates what you may write in your logbook, not what planes you may fly and when.

>>>>>>>However, you still can't act as PIC unless you are current.

yes, I think we all agree that's true, and it is because 61.57 says you may not act as pilot in command unless you meet certain currency requirements. That doesn't have anything to do with 61.51.
 
Flight Time

CJH is right. . been doing this for a long time.. all you need is Multi Engine Land in order to LOG PIC time. . since oyu were the sole manipulator. Remember, logging PIC and ACTING as PIC are two totally different and indepent things, and are defined differently in the regs.

seeya in the wind.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom