Logging Time???

[FlyGuy78]

I had a chance this past week to fly a couple of trips in a King Air E90 and a C414. I was wondering if it is possible to log this time PIC as sole manipulator. I have my commercial multi but no high performance or high altitude endorsements. I have heard I can and cannot log this time. Looking for any advice....Thanks in advance....

 

[Fr8Dog]

No you can not log it as PIC even if you were the sole manipulator. Since both aircraft are over 200hp you would need to have a high performance sign off, and the airplanes are pressurized and certified to FL250 or greater so you would need a high altitude endorsement also. I am not sure on if it is FL250 or higher it may be different, but I know it is close to that. If the person you were flying with is a MEI you get get it logged as dual recieved if it was on a part 91 flight. If it was 135 then you are SOL because you were just a passenger sitting up front.

 

[bobbysamd]

Oh, well . . . . .

I hear you, my friend, but I have to agree with Fr8dog.

Don't worry, if you play your cards right you'll get your chance to get all the multi you need.

 

[TedCFII]

You do not need a High Performance Endorsement to fly a Multi-Engine Airplane. The regulation states "an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower". Your Multi-Engine Rating allows you to fly any multi with the appropriate check out and endorsement for high altitude.

The King Air would require the High Altitude Endorsement since they are certified to FL250. If I remember correctly the 90 Series and 100s are up to FL250.
The Reg States.. " an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating Altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL"

My interpretation is like this. The Saab 340 has a maximum operating alititude of 25,000 feet. King Air 200,300,350s have Service Ceiling of something like 35,000(?) So if the airplane is certifified to fly up to 25,000 or higher then the High Altitude Endorsement is rewquired.

You can reference FAR 61.31(f) High Performance
and FAR 61.31(g) for High Altitude

Hope this helps and doesn't make the water any muddier!

See Yaaa!

 

[CaptBuzzard]

You might want to re-think the high performance reg. An airplane with an engine with more than 200 hp. (An) being the key word. Though it doesn't say combined hp, since all twins have more combined hp than 200, but the difference in a Piper Apache that has 150hp per side and a Piper Aztec with 250hp per side is that to fly the aztec, you must recieve a high performance endorsement in either the aztec or in a 230 hp C-182 for that matter. Doesn't matter which one it is received in, it is a one time endorsement regardless which type of aircraft it is in. For twins, the regs only consider the horsepower of each engine alone, not combined. It doesn't say that anywhere but, that is the words right from my local FDSO. I personally think it should be combined for a twin, because think about it, a fresh multi-rated pilot can go fly around in an underpowered apache, which is a more compicated plane to fly than a meesly C-182. Granted the 182 may be fuel injected (whoopty doo), but when that left engine quits in that apache, the pilot will have his or her hands more full than when that engine quits in that 182. To fly (in my opinion the less complicated airplane) the 182 you must have the endorsement, but not the apache. I personally think that with a multi-engine rating should come a high performance endorsement as well. But what do I know, I didn't write the regs. Good luck

 

[bobbysamd]

"Low performance" twins?

Seminoles have 180 hp a side, for a total of 360. I read FAR 61.31(f) just now. Yes, it does say, "an engine of more that 200 hp," but it's hard for me not to think of a Seminole as a high-performance airplane. I don't believe that the FSDO is construing the definition correctly.

A "high-peformance" airplane used to be defined in the regs as one with an engine with more than 200 hp, or an airplane with flaps, landing gear, and controllable prop. We always gave Seminole students their high-performance airplane endorsement at the same time we signed them off for their Private Multi. I guess that is the new "complex" endorsement now.

 

[Buzo]

The high performance is needed only if you have an engine over 200hp. Most light twins do not require a hp endorsement since they have a combined hp of over 200hp but each engine is less.

 

[mwaugh]

The people who say you CAN log the time are basing it on their interpretation of 61.51 (e) which says you can log the PIC time when you are the sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in whcih you are RATED. An endorsement is not a rating, it is a requirement to ACT as PIC, but is not a requirement to LOG PIC.

You log what you want, it's your logbook.

Mat

 

[capt_zman]

Just one question, how did you get a multi-engine rating without a high performance endorsement? What airplane did you do it in? How did the examiner let that fly?

 

[chperplt]

If you remember back a few years ago, part 61 changed quite a bit. One of the things that changed was the wording of the high performance endorsement.

I obtained my commercial ME in a Seminole, and did so without a high performance endorsement. The examiner let it fly because the endorsement was not and is not required for the rating, or for the aircraft used.

 

[BellyFlyer]

61.51e says.....

e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.

"Rated" means Category, Class, and Type, if applicable. Unless the aircraft requires a type rating that you do not hold, your airplane multi-engine land rating will suffice. All time which you are sole manipulator may be logged as PIC.

I am curious. Do either of these aircraft require a type rating? Can anyone point to an FAA lisitng of aircraft requiring a type rating? Thanks.

 

[FlyGuy78]

In response to Capt_Zman, I did my multi in a 1957 Piper Apache. It only has 160hp per side, which isn't considered high performance. So, there wasn't any problems with the examiner. I have reviewed FAR61.51 a lot and I'm still not sure if this time is loggable. I don't want to put something in my logbook that isn't true that will come back and bite me later on in my career.

 

[A1FlyBoy]

I got my Multi-Engine rating in a Seminole - an aircraft that is complex, NOT high performance. My High Performance checkout was in a C182RG.

 

[A1FlyBoy]

p.s.

the difference, when considering IS an aircraft HIGH performance, is the HP PER engine SIDE.

 

[CaptBuzzard]

Thank You, that is what I am trying to imply. HP per side. Those who have received high performance endorsements in a Seminole recently better look in to things a little deeper. Your endorsement is not valid. A Seminole, Apache (unless it is a later rare Apache 235) even a Seneca with the 200hp engines is not considered high-performance. Combined hp does not matter. It seems stupid, but that is the way they put it. I wish the regs would just say something about multi-engine airplanes, but I think when it says: an airplane with AN engine with more than 200hp. An engine is one engine, and since multi-engine airplanes have the same output on each side, an engine is either the left, or the right.