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logging sim time

saviboy

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I am not an Mei but ME rated. I am also current instrument-wise. can I log the sim time i do on my own. I would say yes but look for confirmation.thanks
 

nosehair

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You can log it, but not to count for anything. Not flight time, multi time, or training (dual) time. All of the references to using simulator time for certification or currency always speak of "training time" with an "authorized instructor".
 

midlifeflyer

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saviboy said:
I am not an Mei but ME rated. I am also current instrument-wise. can I log the sim time I do on my own. I would say yes but look for confirmation.thanks
Why would you say yes? I'm always curious about whether answers are based on something that was read or just made up.

Nosehair is right. If we're talking about logging for FAA purposes, the answer is a pretty clear no*. You can start with FAR 61.51.


* there is arguably a small hole in 61.51 that would let you to place the numbers in the device column, but =nowhere= else. Hardly worth it because it wouldn't count for anything other than "Hey! I flew a cool sim. See?"
 

saviboy

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how about this?


c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought—

(i) At least six instrument approaches;

(ii) Holding procedures; and

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems.
 

nosehair

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Actually, that looks good. For maintaining currency, I don't see where it says "with an instructor".
 

Ralgha

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saviboy said:
how about this?


c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:
(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought orin a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought—

(i) At least six instrument approaches;

(ii) Holding procedures; and

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems.

No, it doesn't say you have to have an instructor, but it does say that you have to have logged it. Reference 61.51 to find that you must have an instructor present to log sim time.
 

midlifeflyer

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Ralgha said:
No, it doesn't say you have to have an instructor, but it does say that you have to have logged it. Reference 61.51 to find that you must have an instructor present to log sim time.
Ah! The key! I don't think you can answer =any= logging question without reference to the universal rule of logging.

61.51(g)(4):
==============================
A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.
==============================
 
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nosehair

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midlifeflyer said:
Ah! The key! I don't think you can answer =any= logging question without reference to the universal rule of logging.

61.51(g)(4):
==============================
A flight simulator or approved flight training device may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an authorized instructor is present during the simulated flight.
==============================

Ah! The key - time - we're not logging instrument time. We're logging approaches in a device.
 

midlifeflyer

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Guess you can play the overanalyze game if you want to (I have fun with it also), but it's kind of hard to think about logging 6 instrument approaches in simulated IMC in a sim or FTD when putting a 0 in the sim or FTD column in the logbook.
 

nosehair

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midlifeflyer said:
it's kind of hard to think .

...I know. It is for me, too...believe me. It's hard for me to think of logging PIC time when you're not acting as PIC, but....

Anyway, you are right about the sim time has to be dual. Another glitch in the regs. 61.51(g)(3) says: "For purposes of logging instrument time to meet the requirements of 61.57(c)..." then in (4):"A flt sim or FTD...provided an authorized instructor is present."

61.51 references time while 61.57 does not say time, but only approaches, etc.
Sooo, the question is, Do yu feel lucky?
 

Ralgha

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Ya'll can't freaken read.:rolleyes:

====================================================
61.57:
(c) Instrument experience. Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR, unless within the preceding 6 calendar months, that person has:

(1) For the purpose of obtaining instrument experience in an aircraft (other than a glider), performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions, either in flight in the appropriate category of aircraft for the instrument privileges sought or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought—

(i) At least six instrument approaches;

(ii) Holding procedures; and

(iii) Intercepting and tracking courses through the use of navigation systems.
=====================================================

If you don't log the approach along with either actual or simulated instrument time, it doesn't count.:eek: Midlife doesn't usually miss this stuff.;)
 
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midlifeflyer

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Ralgha said:
Ya'll can't freaken read.:rolleyes:
Nosehair can read. I think you missed what he was doing. He's playing word games, reading it as logging the approach =without= logging the time. 61.51 says you can't log instrument =time= in a sim/FTD without an instructor. Doesn't say anything about logging anything else.

I agree with you. It doesn't work, even under FAA "logic." 61.51(b) requires you to log certain things for every entry, including the time in the sim or FTD. So, to continue the game, if you log the approaches without logging the time, you're violating the reg so you have to log the time, but you can't log the time, so you can't log the flight so you can't log the approach, so...
 

Ralgha

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I think the following line from 61.57 says you do have to log actual or simulated time along with the approach.

performed and logged under actual or simulated instrument conditions

Even if it doesn't mean that, I agree that the rules regarding what must be logged when you log something stop you from doing what Nosehair said.
 

johnpeace

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Huh,
In my copy of the FARs, under commercial pilot aeronautical experience, it says I can use a sim or FTD for up to 50 hours of the 250 required total flight hours:
61.129
...
(i) Permitted credit for use of a flight simulator or flight
training device. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this
section, an applicant who has not accomplished the training required by
this section in a course conducted by a training center certificated
under part 142 of this chapter may:
(i) Credit a maximum of 50 hours toward the total aeronautical
experience requirements for an airplane or powered-lift rating, provided
the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized instructor
in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents that
class of airplane or powered-lift category and type, if applicable,
appropriate to the rating sought; and
(ii) Credit a maximum of 25 hours toward the total aeronautical
experience requirements of this section for a helicopter rating,
provided the aeronautical experience was obtained from an authorized
instructor in a flight simulator or flight training device that
represents a helicopter and type, if applicable, appropriate to the
rating sought.
 

munson

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alright this is getting a little confusing now. Let me ask it like this...If you were going to aply for a job at a major airline and you had sim time, how would you log it. Does it count for Total Time, what about full motion simulators with visuals (i have alot of time in these from the military)? Also, would you divide it up between day and night?
 

vclean

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You need to use the search function as this subject comes up every month or so.
Sim is sim, nothing else. It is not: total, multiengine, instrument (actual or hood) , cross country, flight time or night. With an authorized instructor log FTD (flight training device) or simulator if the sim is FAA approved level C or D.

Log what you like or desire. Airlines discount sim or FTD time. I and many others do not log sim time. Company training records maintain this. If you are thinking of interviewing with an airline, I would not corrupt my logbook with useless sim time, especially if it is logged incorrectly.
 

johnpeace

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I just log it as sim time (not PIC, not XC, not 'flight time')...just sim, dual received and simulated instrument.

I have done so for the purposes of satisfying experience/training requirements of my instrument and now commercial ratings.

I don't imagine I'll ever have an interview anywhere where it matters whether or not 50-100 hours of my total experience were logged in a sim. Not that I would present them in an interview as anything other than sim hours.

Anyway, my point was just that for some purposes, sim time is applicable toward experience requirements.
 
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