Logging Safety Pilot Time?

[AC560]

It =is= clear. Been clear for a lot of years.

No it isn't because if it was the #1 topic on these and other forums wouldn't be can I log PIC as a regional F/O, can I log PIC as a safety pilot, or can I log PIC as sole manipulator; my buddy logs PIC as a safety pilot; the 2 instructors in the back seat each log PIC for giving us each dual; and because it was a moonless night we all logged it as actual.

This weekend take a poll at your airport ask some random questions on what is legal and isn't legal to log. Then get back to me on whether the regulations are clearly written or not, being able to understand something (which most people don't anyways) does not make it clear.

there's nothing that changes it in the current proposed revision.

The definition of cross country would be one thing listed in the proposed changes which would effect logging. They also want to broaden 61.59 to include an "incorrect" entry in a logbook as opposed to a "fraudulent" entry as a basis for suspension or revocation of a certificate. Along with a slew of other things most of which will make it worse rather then better.

AOPA specifically wrote in their comments on the proposed rule changes.

"AOPA Members continue to have questions on appropriately logging PIC time. AOPA suggests that a matrix be added to Part 61.51(e), Logging pilot-in-command flight time, outlining the conditions under which a pilot may log PIC time, including time spent acting as a safety pilot."

You just don't like it.

I don't like it either. We should not have two distinctly different definitions for PIC which we currently do in the FAR's. There should be a clear definition of when you can log actual IFR, when you can log PIC, etc. Because while I can read the legal opinions (and the fact several people have had to write for rulings further indicates the lack of clarity) and I have a good grasp of what is and what isn't allowable it took a lot of time and effort to get there that could have been expended better doing something else.

 

[avbug]

No it isn't because if it was the #1 topic on these and other forums wouldn't be can I log PIC as a regional F/O, can I log PIC as a safety pilot, or can I log PIC as sole manipulator; my buddy logs PIC as a safety pilot; the 2 instructors in the back seat each log PIC for giving us each dual; and because it was a moonless night we all logged it as actual.

This weekend take a poll at your airport ask some random questions on what is legal and isn't legal to log. Then get back to me on whether the regulations are clearly written or not, being able to understand something (which most people don't anyways) does not make it clear.

What you have here is not ambiguous regulation, but lazy pilots who expect to learn by osmosis. The regulation is quite clear on the topic.

Can you log PIC as a regional F/O? Yes, if you're rated in the aircraft...but the question arises as to weather you should. The issue of legality should be something you were taught as a student pilot. If you still don't know it, that's your fault. It's spelled out in the regulation.

Can you log PIC as a safety pilot? The answer is very clear, but again, lazy pilot syndrome means that many won't lift a finger to get educated, and then complain about it being too hard to understand. Again, refer back to my comments above; use the search engine here. Read the regulation. It's not a grey area at all.

Can you log PIC as sole manipulator? Clearly yes, if you're rated in the aircraft...and it's spelled out VERY clearly in the regulation...something every student pilot should have been taught. If you don't understand it, you need to be re-educated on the basics.

Your buddy logs PIC as safety pilot...but is he the PIC? If not, he can't log it as PIC. The instructors in the back seat are idiots. As are those in the front for going along with it. You log instrument...it matters not a whit if you are in simulated or actual conditions. How many pilots does it take for you four to screw in a lightbulb, anyway? Sounds like a poor joke in progress.

Take a poll at the local airport? Question lazy pilots about their understanding of the regulation they haven't taken the time to learn, and thus make a truly scientific determination as to how well the regulation is written, or any degree of ambiguity therein? Why not just flip a coin? The test will be just as intelligent. Truth is that when pilots profess to ignorance of the regulation, they're professing to ignorance. You can stop right there, because that's the heart of the problem. Not the regulation.

We should not have two distinctly different definitions for PIC which we currently do in the FAR's.

There has only ever been one definition of pilot in command in the regulation. Logging flight time for the purposes of meeting the recency of flight experience requirements, or experience requirements for a certificate or rating is another matter. Logging time doesn't make one the PIC; the definition of PIC hasn't changed, nor has the responsibility thereof.

The FAA purposely applied the regulation regarding logging of PIC as it did, following considerable public comment, for good reason. Circumstances exist under which one may not be the PIC in an airplane, but may be fulfilling the role and is therefore justified in logging the time. Such an example is one who is rated in the airplane (category and class), but needs a minimum experience in the airplane to qualify for insurance purposes. The individual may not be allowed by the operator to act as PIC, but may still log PIC by fulfilling all the appropriate duties and conducting all the appropriate actions under the supervision or tutelage of a qualified pilot who is acting as PIC...and therefore log enough time legitimately to qualify for insurance, for a job, for a certificate or rating, to instruct in the aircraft, etc. The regulation thus written has eased the economic burden on the general aviation pilot while recognizing that even though the pilot may not be the actual PIC for the flight, he or she may have taken all the steps, made all the decisions, conducted the flight, operated the aircraft, etc...and therefore has good reason and justification for logging the time as PIC. Bottom line,the regulation makes sense, and it's to your benifit.

There should be a clear definition of when you can log actual IFR, when you can log PIC, etc.

The regulations are quite clear on those topics.

Because while I can read the legal opinions (and the fact several people have had to write for rulings further indicates the lack of clarity) and I have a good grasp of what is and what isn't allowable it took a lot of time and effort to get there that could have been expended better doing something else.

If you're flying for a living, learning and knowing the regulation is part of your job. Don't want to do it? Go find different work. The regulation set forth by the FAA is among the shortest regulation in the Code of Federal Regulations. Ever look at the tax law?

The regulation was intentionally designed to be a living document, subject to change, to expansion, and to adapt to changing requirements in the real world. Legal opinions show the way the regulation is applied by the Administrator, and are of value, as are specific ALJ rulings (case law), and Federal Register preambles...all of which are applicable, defensible, and relevant to understanding the regulation.

Remember that ignorance of the law is never an excuse.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No it isn't because if it was the #1 topic on these and other forums wouldn't be can I log PIC as a regional F/O, can I log PIC as a safety pilot, or can I log PIC as sole manipulator; my buddy logs PIC as a safety pilot; the 2 instructors in the back seat each log PIC for giving us each dual; and because it was a moonless night we all logged it as actual.

"I don't understand" or "I don't have the knowledge" is not the definition of unclear. All of those questions you just mentioned, from an FAR standpoint, have had unvarying official answers for decades.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Take a poll at the local airport? Question lazy pilots about their understanding of the regulation they haven't taken the time to learn, and thus make a truly scientific determination as to how well the regulation is written, or any degree of ambiguity therein? Why not just flip a coin? The test will be just as intelligent. Truth is that when pilots profess to ignorance of the regulation, they're professing to ignorance. You can stop right there, because that's the heart of the problem. Not the regulation.

Heck, take a poll of pilots walking up to a Cutlass to explain the workings of the constant speed prop or the landing gear and you might find that those systems are "unclear" by the definition of some folks here.

But I don't fault anyone for confusion on the regs. The FAA did, after all, end up taking a phrase "pilot in command" and using it in two different ways - as meaning the person who is the pilot in charge of the flight ("real" or "acting" PIC) and as a shorthand for various pilot functions that permit the accumulation of a certain category of time that the FAA uses to determine qualifications for certificates, ratings, and currency ("paper" or "logged" PIC time).

Unfortunately (except for online forums that have in recent years broadened the knowledge base), most student pilots are not exposed to the difference between real and paper PIC. That's mostly because their CFIs weren't exposed to it either.

 

[AC560]

"I don't understand" is not the definition of unclear.

Unclear
c.1300, "not easy to understand," from un- (1) "not" + clear (adj.). Cf. M.Du. onclaer, Du. onklaar, Ger. unklar, O.N. uklarr, Dan. uklar, Swed. oklar. Of persons, in sense of "uncertain, doubtful," it is recorded from 1671. Uncleared is recorded from 1637 in ref. to debts, 1772 in ref. to land.

Heck, take a poll of pilots walking up to a Cutlass to explain the workings of the constant speed prop or the landing gear and you might find that those systems are "unclear" by the definition of some folks here.

Hand those pilots an operating manual for a Cutlass, then ask them the question on the workings of the constant speed prop or landing gear after they have read it. I would suspect that the vast majority would be quickly able to provide the correct answer.

Take a copy of part 61 and ask what is the maximum amount of people who can log PIC on a flight. I suspect that the vast majority would not be able to provide the correct answer.

This isn't entirely a matter of ignorance it is a matter of poorly written regulations (imho) which make it difficult for both students, pilots, and instructors to understand. Though clearly it is a matter where I will have to part ways with you and Avbug. I hope you took the time to send your thoughts to the FAA prior to the May 8th deadline.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Take a copy of part 61 and ask what is the maximum amount of people who can log PIC on a flight. I suspect that the vast majority would not be able to provide the correct answer.

I'll have to disagree with you. A lot of folks will not be able to read that book and understand the workings of that Cutlass. I still haven't a clue how to read a wiring diagram without getting a headache. Ever see a student pilot try to use those performance charts or an E6B without instruction? Or figure out that "maneuvering speed" is not the speed at which it's easy to maneuver or that "controllability" does not mean how easy it is to keep the aircraft under control?

But sit me down with someone who understands those diagrams and can teach, and the chances are they would become clear, even to me. (I'll admit to the laziness that AvBug describes.)

Same with With the logging rules, sit down with a classroom with the same people and review the official FAA interpretations of the same stuff, and you'll have people who understand (assuming, of course, that they want to). My experience is that the body or rules and regulations that govern a regulated activity are not the easiest to understand. Like that wiring diagram, regulese is not normal English. To some extent the stilted language with the sub-paragraphs and reliance on references and definitions and concepts that may appear elsewhere takes a bit of effort.

But really, once you understand that the word "only" has been consistently interpreted as both a necessary and a sufficient condition, how unclear is

==============================
A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges
==============================

The misunderstanding of this pretty simple sentence seem to be a bunch of "buts," "unlesses," "excepts" and other concepts that people keep reading into it, not the language of the regulation itself. I guess "clarity" is in the eye of the beholder.

BTW, although I agree with AvBug that there is some history to the reasons it was done this way (which, based on an email I received this week, may go back to at least 1929!), I won't argue with your desire to change it. If you want to force a private pilot heading to an instrument rating to fly 50 hours of cross country as a real PIC and not be able to count instructional cross countries he flies with his II, go for it. Or, if you want to stop a pilot from using time that she has acted as a safety pilot to help meet the technical Part 61 requirements for getting a commercial certificate or the technical Part 135 time requirements if she lucks out and gets a chance to fly for a small cargo operator, by all means petition the FAA to change things.

 

[nosehair]

All of those questions you just mentioned, from an FAR standpoint, have had unvarying official answers for decades.

Another way of saying that is, "Tha FAA has been trying to write clarifying official answers for all these years, ...and still, regular people have much difficulty understanding and applying the regulation about logging PIC."

You guys who answer that this 61.51 is clear have been living in a vacuum too long.

Yeah, it's crystal clear to you.

But it's very obvious that it is not clear to most people. The test to make that determination is the actual understandability of the language in the working field.

It took me a lot of back-and-forth with this issue; First, the reading of the words P-I-C within a regulation would seem to be addressing the PIC, so all the words in the regulation would seem, to the uninitiated mind, to apply to a pilot who is in command.

In other words, "Here is what must be happening for you, the PIC, to log it as PIC..(i)(ii)(iii)"

Next is the mis-understanding of the term "rated".

In most of the cases, when you think of a pilot being "rated", it means he is "rated" (fully authorized) to act as PIC.

The definition of "Rating" in FAR 1.1 is: "Rating means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, priveleges, or limitations."

The camp that wants to log PIC for every minute they are on the controls of an airplane they are not capable of being the PIC of, wants to interpret this to say rating means what's stamped on your certificate.

The camp that believes that PIC hours should reflect exactly that; PIC time as defined in 1.1 interprets "rated" to mean complying with all regulations concerning priveleges and limitations of the pilot certificate which are set forth in regulations, such as complex, high performance, etc. In other words, the pilot who logs PIC should be performing the duties of PIC under supervision of an instructor, and that instructor is attesting that this pilot is performing at PIC level during the flight.

See the lack of clarity?

 

[AC560]

==============================
A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges
==============================

The misunderstanding of this pretty simple sentence seem to be a bunch of "buts," "unlesses," "excepts" and other concepts that people keep reading into it, not the language of the regulation itself. I guess "clarity" is in the eye of the beholder.

So if I am an ATP I can no longer log PIC flying a C172 under part 91?

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all
of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation
requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

 

[Doc Holiday]

61.167 (a)

A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.

 

[SSDD]

The problem with the FAR's is not so much that they are unclear, but rather that people are always trying to find ways to get around them.