Logging Safety Pilot Time?

[pgcfii2002]

Is it permissable as PIC...since under the FAR's the Safety Pilot is a required crewmember?

 

[avbug]

This subject gets covered a lot. A little effort with the search engine should net you more than you wanted to know.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Try this (it's mine but what the heck):

"May a Safety Pilot Log PIC Time?"
http://www.midlifeflight.com/faq/faq.php?s=2#8

 

[pgcfii2002]

Thanks

 

[flyboyike]

The problem with all these "kinda PIC but not really" situations is that, regardless of what the FAA considers PIC, what matters is what an airline will accept as such. I'm not aware of a carrier that would let you count safety pilot time. It seems to me most of them will count PIC only if:

1. You signed for the airplane.
2. You gave instruction in the airplane.
3. You received instruction in the airplane.

I would add that I don't see how it would make much difference. In my nearly 1300 hours, I probably have all of 8-11 hrs as safety pilot. Hardly worth worrying about, IMHO.

 

[AC560]

I'm not aware of a carrier that would let you count safety pilot time.

I know two guys flying for Skywest who did 90% of their multi-time this way.

When they rewrite part 61 I hope they change PIC under it to something more clear. It is highly retarded right now imho (for a lot of reasons not just the safety pilot, sole manipulator, etc. stuff).

 

[727gm]

Logging time as a Safety Pilot IS lame.

The regulation requiring a safety pilot is not written for the benefit of shameless time-builders, but to encourage practice and proficiency by those flying under the hood.

Just sit there and keep your head on a swivel, and appreciate good work that CFII's have done in making instrument pilots. And when you need some practice, maybe the other fellow will act as safety pilot for you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

When they rewrite part 61 I hope they change PIC under it to something more clear.

It =is= clear. Been clear for a lot of years. Wasn't changed when they revised Part 61 10 years ago and there's nothing that changes it in the current proposed revision.

You just don't like it. That's a different issue.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I wanna be a safety pilot when I grow up!

....Bestest job in the whole world Mommy!

 

[nosehair]

I wanna be a safety pilot when I grow up!

....Bestest job in the whole world Mommy!

Nothin' to it, Sonny ! Just get your CFI.

 

[AC560]

It =is= clear. Been clear for a lot of years.

No it isn't because if it was the #1 topic on these and other forums wouldn't be can I log PIC as a regional F/O, can I log PIC as a safety pilot, or can I log PIC as sole manipulator; my buddy logs PIC as a safety pilot; the 2 instructors in the back seat each log PIC for giving us each dual; and because it was a moonless night we all logged it as actual.

This weekend take a poll at your airport ask some random questions on what is legal and isn't legal to log. Then get back to me on whether the regulations are clearly written or not, being able to understand something (which most people don't anyways) does not make it clear.

there's nothing that changes it in the current proposed revision.

The definition of cross country would be one thing listed in the proposed changes which would effect logging. They also want to broaden 61.59 to include an "incorrect" entry in a logbook as opposed to a "fraudulent" entry as a basis for suspension or revocation of a certificate. Along with a slew of other things most of which will make it worse rather then better.

AOPA specifically wrote in their comments on the proposed rule changes.

"AOPA Members continue to have questions on appropriately logging PIC time. AOPA suggests that a matrix be added to Part 61.51(e), Logging pilot-in-command flight time, outlining the conditions under which a pilot may log PIC time, including time spent acting as a safety pilot."

You just don't like it.

I don't like it either. We should not have two distinctly different definitions for PIC which we currently do in the FAR's. There should be a clear definition of when you can log actual IFR, when you can log PIC, etc. Because while I can read the legal opinions (and the fact several people have had to write for rulings further indicates the lack of clarity) and I have a good grasp of what is and what isn't allowable it took a lot of time and effort to get there that could have been expended better doing something else.

 

[avbug]

No it isn't because if it was the #1 topic on these and other forums wouldn't be can I log PIC as a regional F/O, can I log PIC as a safety pilot, or can I log PIC as sole manipulator; my buddy logs PIC as a safety pilot; the 2 instructors in the back seat each log PIC for giving us each dual; and because it was a moonless night we all logged it as actual.

This weekend take a poll at your airport ask some random questions on what is legal and isn't legal to log. Then get back to me on whether the regulations are clearly written or not, being able to understand something (which most people don't anyways) does not make it clear.

What you have here is not ambiguous regulation, but lazy pilots who expect to learn by osmosis. The regulation is quite clear on the topic.

Can you log PIC as a regional F/O? Yes, if you're rated in the aircraft...but the question arises as to weather you should. The issue of legality should be something you were taught as a student pilot. If you still don't know it, that's your fault. It's spelled out in the regulation.

Can you log PIC as a safety pilot? The answer is very clear, but again, lazy pilot syndrome means that many won't lift a finger to get educated, and then complain about it being too hard to understand. Again, refer back to my comments above; use the search engine here. Read the regulation. It's not a grey area at all.

Can you log PIC as sole manipulator? Clearly yes, if you're rated in the aircraft...and it's spelled out VERY clearly in the regulation...something every student pilot should have been taught. If you don't understand it, you need to be re-educated on the basics.

Your buddy logs PIC as safety pilot...but is he the PIC? If not, he can't log it as PIC. The instructors in the back seat are idiots. As are those in the front for going along with it. You log instrument...it matters not a whit if you are in simulated or actual conditions. How many pilots does it take for you four to screw in a lightbulb, anyway? Sounds like a poor joke in progress.

Take a poll at the local airport? Question lazy pilots about their understanding of the regulation they haven't taken the time to learn, and thus make a truly scientific determination as to how well the regulation is written, or any degree of ambiguity therein? Why not just flip a coin? The test will be just as intelligent. Truth is that when pilots profess to ignorance of the regulation, they're professing to ignorance. You can stop right there, because that's the heart of the problem. Not the regulation.

We should not have two distinctly different definitions for PIC which we currently do in the FAR's.

There has only ever been one definition of pilot in command in the regulation. Logging flight time for the purposes of meeting the recency of flight experience requirements, or experience requirements for a certificate or rating is another matter. Logging time doesn't make one the PIC; the definition of PIC hasn't changed, nor has the responsibility thereof.

The FAA purposely applied the regulation regarding logging of PIC as it did, following considerable public comment, for good reason. Circumstances exist under which one may not be the PIC in an airplane, but may be fulfilling the role and is therefore justified in logging the time. Such an example is one who is rated in the airplane (category and class), but needs a minimum experience in the airplane to qualify for insurance purposes. The individual may not be allowed by the operator to act as PIC, but may still log PIC by fulfilling all the appropriate duties and conducting all the appropriate actions under the supervision or tutelage of a qualified pilot who is acting as PIC...and therefore log enough time legitimately to qualify for insurance, for a job, for a certificate or rating, to instruct in the aircraft, etc. The regulation thus written has eased the economic burden on the general aviation pilot while recognizing that even though the pilot may not be the actual PIC for the flight, he or she may have taken all the steps, made all the decisions, conducted the flight, operated the aircraft, etc...and therefore has good reason and justification for logging the time as PIC. Bottom line,the regulation makes sense, and it's to your benifit.

There should be a clear definition of when you can log actual IFR, when you can log PIC, etc.

The regulations are quite clear on those topics.

Because while I can read the legal opinions (and the fact several people have had to write for rulings further indicates the lack of clarity) and I have a good grasp of what is and what isn't allowable it took a lot of time and effort to get there that could have been expended better doing something else.

If you're flying for a living, learning and knowing the regulation is part of your job. Don't want to do it? Go find different work. The regulation set forth by the FAA is among the shortest regulation in the Code of Federal Regulations. Ever look at the tax law?

The regulation was intentionally designed to be a living document, subject to change, to expansion, and to adapt to changing requirements in the real world. Legal opinions show the way the regulation is applied by the Administrator, and are of value, as are specific ALJ rulings (case law), and Federal Register preambles...all of which are applicable, defensible, and relevant to understanding the regulation.

Remember that ignorance of the law is never an excuse.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No it isn't because if it was the #1 topic on these and other forums wouldn't be can I log PIC as a regional F/O, can I log PIC as a safety pilot, or can I log PIC as sole manipulator; my buddy logs PIC as a safety pilot; the 2 instructors in the back seat each log PIC for giving us each dual; and because it was a moonless night we all logged it as actual.

"I don't understand" or "I don't have the knowledge" is not the definition of unclear. All of those questions you just mentioned, from an FAR standpoint, have had unvarying official answers for decades.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Take a poll at the local airport? Question lazy pilots about their understanding of the regulation they haven't taken the time to learn, and thus make a truly scientific determination as to how well the regulation is written, or any degree of ambiguity therein? Why not just flip a coin? The test will be just as intelligent. Truth is that when pilots profess to ignorance of the regulation, they're professing to ignorance. You can stop right there, because that's the heart of the problem. Not the regulation.

Heck, take a poll of pilots walking up to a Cutlass to explain the workings of the constant speed prop or the landing gear and you might find that those systems are "unclear" by the definition of some folks here.

But I don't fault anyone for confusion on the regs. The FAA did, after all, end up taking a phrase "pilot in command" and using it in two different ways - as meaning the person who is the pilot in charge of the flight ("real" or "acting" PIC) and as a shorthand for various pilot functions that permit the accumulation of a certain category of time that the FAA uses to determine qualifications for certificates, ratings, and currency ("paper" or "logged" PIC time).

Unfortunately (except for online forums that have in recent years broadened the knowledge base), most student pilots are not exposed to the difference between real and paper PIC. That's mostly because their CFIs weren't exposed to it either.

 

[AC560]

"I don't understand" is not the definition of unclear.

Unclear
c.1300, "not easy to understand," from un- (1) "not" + clear (adj.). Cf. M.Du. onclaer, Du. onklaar, Ger. unklar, O.N. uklarr, Dan. uklar, Swed. oklar. Of persons, in sense of "uncertain, doubtful," it is recorded from 1671. Uncleared is recorded from 1637 in ref. to debts, 1772 in ref. to land.

Heck, take a poll of pilots walking up to a Cutlass to explain the workings of the constant speed prop or the landing gear and you might find that those systems are "unclear" by the definition of some folks here.

Hand those pilots an operating manual for a Cutlass, then ask them the question on the workings of the constant speed prop or landing gear after they have read it. I would suspect that the vast majority would be quickly able to provide the correct answer.

Take a copy of part 61 and ask what is the maximum amount of people who can log PIC on a flight. I suspect that the vast majority would not be able to provide the correct answer.

This isn't entirely a matter of ignorance it is a matter of poorly written regulations (imho) which make it difficult for both students, pilots, and instructors to understand. Though clearly it is a matter where I will have to part ways with you and Avbug. I hope you took the time to send your thoughts to the FAA prior to the May 8th deadline.