Logging IFR in two crew environment

[citabriapilot]

In a two crew environment does the captain log all instrument time, or only the instrument time when its actually his/her leg? With the regs saying " A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person OPERATES the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." Some of the regs specifically say SOLE MANIPULATOR, while this does not.


What about night?

 

[larryiah]

Logging time

I've never even thought about it.

 

[canyonblue737]

This always was a question and different POIs or FSDOs will give different answers... SO WILL DIFFERENT COMPANIES DURING THEIR INTERVIEWS. For example one guy I knew years ago interviewed at United and the interview gave him a problem with some legs where he logged actual but no landing indicating it wasn't his leg. He tried to explain the FARs etc. and plead his case but the interview didn't go well.

Point is this... I don't think it is wrong to log all IMC time in a 2 crew enviroment regardless of if you are at the controls that leg, but I wouldn't recommend it since others may not have that same viewpoint later in your career, no matter if they are right or wrong. Always be conservative with your IMC time, most airlines balk if it is over 10% of your total...

Also once at a regional airline / corporate gig continue to be very conservative because someday when interviewing at a major level they KNOW you have plenty of IMC experience (ie. they don't evaluate your experience based on your total IMC time anymore) but they will evaluate your honesty based on if your totals in any category, including IMC, appear out of whack with their accurate or inaccurate presumptions of what those totals SHOULD be for your total time.

As for night I have never seen that same problem, it should be logged regardless of if you are flying at the controls.

 

[hyflyt560]

What if the autopilot is in use?

The Portland FSDO told me on two seperate occassions that if it's IMC, both pilots can log actual.

Here's one: One of our corporate planes is a King Air 300. If I let the other pilot (required by insurance) fly, he cannot log the time. Yet, if he does an approach, landing (night or day), etc. he can use that event towards currency.

 

[414Flyer]

Provided you are both required crewmembers, it only makes sense that you can both log it. IMC is a condition of flight, and being an PIC or SIC, or PF or PNF, does not change that.

 

[Ty Webb]

I only logged my legs as IFR when I was the PF . . . but it would seem that at this level. "logging" the IFR time is really reporting the flight conditions at the time you served as a required crew member.

The reason I say this is that in order to perform a Cat 3, both crewmembers must be current Cat 3, yet either of them "flying" the approach makes both pilots current, regardless of who was the PF or PNF. . . . .

Regardless, as someone else said, the most important thing is that they are looking for honesty and conformity to the regs, not a few more hours in the soup.

 

[Caveman]

Most people I know, including me, log night no matter who is flying and log IFR only when it's their leg. I do agree that the regs are pretty clear and when 2 pilots are required both may log it. Why do I treat night differently? I dunno, it just seems more appropriate.

 

[flx757]

On an aircraft/flight that "requires" two crewmembers...both crewmembers are "operating" the aircraft. Therefore, any "condition of flight", such as actual instrument or night, may be logged by both cremembers.

 

[StaySeated]

I might be lazy but...

I haven't filled in those columns (night, ifr, landings, etc...) in over ten years.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I'm of the opinion that BOTH PIC and SIC may log actual, since it is considered a condition of flight as much as night.

 

[othello]

"logging instrument time as the second-in-command is legal in. FAR 61.51(g) (excerpted below) governs logging of instrument flight time, and allows you to log the time during which you "operate" the aircraft solely by reference to instruments. Note that it says nothing about being the "sole manipulator" of the flight controls, as is the case for PIC time (in some cases) and for recent experience (landings and instrument approaches) (FAR 61.57). It only requires you to "operate" the aircraft. NOTE: This does not mean that you can log approaches when the other pilot is flying. To log approaches, you must be the sole manipulator of the flight controls. "

You are logging the flight condition, It has no barring on whom is operating the aircraft.

If you logg night when you are acting as PNF at night, than you should logg IMC as well. Both are flight conditions.

 

[trainer8]

Many interviewers use "10% of total time" rule as a baseline to evaluate the Actual column in your logbook. They will know if your padding this column or not.

In the 121 environment where both pilots are required to operate the aircraft, the sole manipulator rule is also a base line. Auto-pilot usage in actual conditions requires interpretation of flight director/information data by the manipulator and/or the PIC/PM

Don't make it so complex, though. Log the time you are sole manipulator in actual conditions or don't have adequate visual cues. Use common sense for logging the time.

I will turn off the automation several weeks prior to a PC or LOFT coming up to sharpen up my scan. The automation will make you soft....that is, your scan...especially if you have glass. Some day you may have to hand fly the ole girl down to mins when the yaw damp channels fail, or the AP/FD takes a crap. I've had it happen and so have others. Be prepared...fly safe

T8

 

[iwannaflyCAL]

Geez, what's the big deal? IMC time doesn't mean much. Why put yourself in an awkward situation in an interview? It isn't worth it. Just log IMC when it is your leg. Night can be logged on either leg. If you have a thousand hours and any PIC, the interviewers probably won't even look at your instrument.

Good Luck

 

[threegreen]

The same can be said the other way around - why would you NOT log actual when you could (should?) have...

I think if it's legal, log it. Then, if some holier than thou interviewer doesn't want to count it you can always subtract the legs you did not 'fly' (which is a misnomer anyway - both crewmembers are responsible for the safety of the flight).

 

[Ralgha]

Just log IMC when it is your leg. Night can be logged on either leg.

Explain why night differs from IMC please.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

An SIC could actually even log PIC as sole manipulator on thier legs.

The only thing he/she can't do is log the landing or approach if not sole manipulator.

In some parts of the country where there arent large cities lighting up the area, or in combination with a moonless night, you really are in actual in a sense. Instead of gray outside, its black. In fact, one can legally log this time if they wanted to as long as the aircraft during that period was controlled soley by reference to the instruments.

Anyone who feels it's okay to log night and not actual as SIC is beign hypocritical.

 

[CesnaCaptn]

I'm having trouble finding in the regs where it states that an SIC (where one is required) can log PIC when sole manipulator. Could you give me a reference please. The only thing I can find is in the definitions of Part 1 where it states:

Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.

 

[N7167L]

See FAR 61.51(e) - Logging pilot-in-command flight time

 

[MK82Man]

Because I had time

OK, here is 61.51 (e) ….

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted?

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—
(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.

Furthermore in FAA Notice 95-11[FR] …

As noted in Notice No. 95-11[FR], there has been a distinction between acting as pilot in command and logging of pilot-in-command time. "Pilot in command," as defined in part 1, "means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time." Section 61.51 is a flight-time logging regulation under which: (1) pilot-in-command time may be logged by someone who is not pilot in command as defined in part 1 (e.g., when the pilot is the sole manipulator of controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated but is not the pilot in command as defined in part 1); and (2) pilot-in-command time may not be logged by someone who is the actual pilot in command as defined in part 1 (e.g., when the pilot acting as pilot in command on which more than one pilot is not required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted is not the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft, and the pilot who is the sole manipulator of the controls is logging that time as pilot-in-command time).

Furthermore (selected entries) from the FAA Chief Counsel Opinions …

Pilot In Command (PIC)

If the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls and he or she is receiving instruction, that pilot may log the same flight time as both pilot-in-command (PIC) time and training time. However, the time may only count once towards total time. (5-17-01).

A pilot may log pilot-in-command flight time while they are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which they are rated, the sole occupant of the aircraft, acting as PIC on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certificate or the regulations governing the flight, or while acting as pilot in command of an operation requiring an ATP certificate (ATP certificate holders only). (8-21-00).

If more than one pilot is required under the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations governing the flight then the acting pilot in command may log PIC flight time for the entire flight even though he or she may not manipulate the flight controls, and the second in command may log PIC flight time for all of the flight time while he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls. In addition, if the regulations require the pilot in command to hold an ATP for that operation, even if more than one pilot is not required under the type certificate of the aircraft or the governing regulations, then the acting pilot in command may log PIC flight time for the entire flight and the second in command may log PIC flight time for all of the time while he or she is the sole manipulator of the controls. (8-21-00).

Your question concerning 61.51 centers on the sentence “for which the pilot is rated.” You ask “if the airplane in question requires a type rating (for example, KC-135 or B-707), does a pilot have to possess the type rating for that aircraft before he can log PIC time during that portion of the flight during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls? Or, to the contrary, are possession of a private pilot certificate and merely being the sole manipulator of the controls sufficient to log PIC time in that aircraft?" Under 61.51, a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which that pilot is rated. "Rated", as used under 61.51, refers to the category, class, and type as appropriate. Therefore, pilots must be appropriately rated for the aircraft, as the term is defined above, before they may log PIC time under Part 61. The possession of a private pilot certificate and merely being the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft is not necessarily sufficient to log PIC time. (7-30-92).

Under 61.51, concerning the logging of PIC time, the sentence "when acting as pilot-in-command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification..." does not mean that a pilot, not in possession of the type certificate for that aircraft, can nonetheless act as PIC during the portion of the flight that he is the sole manipulator of the controls and therefore log PIC time for that portion of the flight. (7-30-92).

The second in command, who is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated may log that time as PIC flight time under 61.51, in order to use that experience to meet the requirements for a certificate or rating or recent flight experience requirements of Part 61. Also, if the pilot is acting as second in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required by the FAR, he may also log that time as second-in-command time under 61.51. Of course, one hour logged under both PIC and SIC time adds up to only one hour total flight time. It should be recognized that some time may be logged as PIC time for some purposes, but not for others. For example, the 100 hours of PIC time included in 135.225(d) refers to time when the pilot actually served as PIC, not when he was the SIC manipulating the controls. (12-5-84).

So if you ask a dozen forum readers …. you will get a dozen different answers. My advice is to be conservative. If you are an FO at a Major, why would you ever log PIC when you are SIC. You already have enough time as a PIC to get where your are. If you are typed in your jet and you are the sole manipulator, and you want to log PIC, that’s up to you. But why would you? Most often the Captain is always logging PIC … would you tell him not to log PIC on your leg? Investigate the rules for yourself and be informed.

 

[Big Air]

And in case anyone is still interested...
The Navy specifically stats that both pilots log Actual Instrument time when the primary attitude reference for horizon is the gyro.
In addition to Day IMC, lots of guys will log actual instrument for black ass night VMC as long as there is no visable horzion.

 

[satpak77]

In a two crew environment does the captain log all instrument time, or only the instrument time when its actually his/her leg? With the regs saying " A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person OPERATES the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions." Some of the regs specifically say SOLE MANIPULATOR, while this does not.


What about night?

dude, don't make this hard. You said two-crew. That means, everything but "PIC" is logged (and landings on his side).

If you are required to be in the airplane per the FAA as a crew-member, you then must log time in it. If you could not log IFR time when the "Captain is flying", then how do you maintain IFR currency? You are a non type rated but required co-pilot. Say SAAB 340 FO at a Commuter. Your company sends you thru the type course but due to money you are not allowed to take the type ride. Only Captains hold types.

You gonna go out and fly some approaches yourself, from the right seat? Remember, you can't log it (using the logic you introduced). So are you never ever in the history of the universe going to become IFR current?

keep it simple....log it if its two crew. If its ONE pilot crew, AND a type rated airplane, say you are riding shotgun in some guys King Air 350, and you try to log IFR currency, the FAA could probably have some heartburn with you

 

[threegreen]

I think some people just read too much into this stuff. Were you there? Were you required? Then log away!