Logging 2nd in command as safety pilot

[T-REX]

urgggg

I go with what the FSDO says:

http://www.awp.faa.gov/fsdo/las_vegas/art_pilot.htm

Plus, the whole SIC C150 looks funny!

 

[Bernoulli]

Thanks for all the feedback. I was surprised to learn through this thread that I can actually log the safety pilot time as PIC raher than SIC. I would obviously log it PIC because it does not stand out as much as SIC. I think the regs 91.109(b1) & 61.51(E)(1,iii) are pretty clear that a safety pilot can log PIC in an aircraft that only requires one pilot, but, I decided to run it by an old FAA check airman that I know and see what he had to say about it. He was very familiar with 61.51(E)(1, iii) and 91.109(b1) and he said it's a very controversial subject. He said he understands how one could believe from what is written in those regs that PIC is loggable as a safety pilot... but he said the FAA does not agree. He said he knows that even some people in the FAA (who havent been around the block as many times as he has) will tell you it's OK, but if it ever goes to court, and he has read about such cases, then the FAA will say it is not loggable as PIC, and in fact the only person who can legally log PIC as a safety pilot in an aircraft requiring only one pilot is a flight instructor. So... let me fill you in on my situation. I have 210 hours in a C-172. I will have my comercial and CFI by 260 hours which is what I had budgeted for. Unfortunately, the State of Hawaii, which I just moved to, has a problem with hiring CFI's with less than 350. The problem is the insurance companies will not insure CFI's with less than 350 hours in Hawaii. So I need about 100 more hours than I had bugeted for which is why I was wondering about logging SIC time. The PIC sounds even better but now I'm not sure. Have any of you guys logged PIC as a safety pilot in an aircraft requiring only one pilot? I'm not talking about a huge amount of time either... probably less than 100 hours... just enough to bridge the gap and then allow me to then build time as a CFI.

 

[TXCAP4228]

I don't really ever intend to fly for a living, so my logbook is based more on what is legal than how an airline will look at it. In any case, you asked if anyone has logged PIC as safety pilot. I have probably 15 hours of time in the PIC column where I was a safety pilot. I don't do this often and I don't think of it as a way of building time, but I do act as a safety pilot every once in a while and when I do I log it as PIC.

How does this affect YOU? PIC time logged as a safety pilot meets legal requirements for logging the time and would satisfy your insurance requirements. I don't agree with your "old check airman" that this is controversial. 61.51 and 91.109 are NOT cryptic. Whether your guy LIKES it or not isn't relevant, it IS legal.

You'll have to decide for yourself if you want to rack up 100 hours that way.

 

[midlifeflyer]

In any case, you asked if anyone has logged PIC as safety pilot. I have probably 15 hours of time in the PIC column where I was a safety pilot.

I have also. More than that. A friend and I fly at least once a month to maintain some semblance of instrument proficiency (very little flyable IMC around here - either cumulonimbus or cumulogranite is the general rule). Our rule is, He who can see out the window is PIC, unless he can't act as PIC (like he's not night current). And when we act as PIC in these circumstances, we log it.

Neither of us have bothered logging SIC. We haven't found a reason for collecting that time.

I don't agree with your "old check airman" that this is controversial.

I don't agree either, unless, of course, one considers
things that have been settled for 10 years "controversial."

 

[cjh]

>>I decided to run it by an old FAA check airman that I know and see what he had to say about it. He was very familiar with 61.51(E)(1, iii) and 91.109(b1) and he said it's a very controversial subject. He said he understands how one could believe from what is written in those regs that PIC is loggable as a safety pilot... but he said the FAA does not agree.<<

Your check airman friend may be a nice guy, but he's flat out wrong on this subject if that is his opinion. I've already posted the regs that allow it, along with the FAA's WRITTEN opinion on the subject. It matters not what pilots think, and it matters not what a local FSDO thinks. The FAA, in thier own AFS-640/840 FAQ board have posted what THEY think. How much more do you need? Log it or don't, but it's perfectly legal despite what your buddy thinks.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The FAA, in thier own AFS-640/840 FAQ board have posted what THEY think.

Although the FAQ is not regulatory and Lunch has had to have been corrected from time to time. (Although I doubt if anyone would get in trouble by relying on the FAQ)

Kansas - world's largest airport

I though it was the world largest emergency landing field.

 

[bigD]

lol...this is one of those threads that just never seems to die.

All that really matters is how employers look at the time. The regs seem to indicate that it's technically legal to log saftey pilot time as PIC. Fine, but that PIC I'm logging is completely worthless if my future employer won't honor it.

 

[midlifeflyer]

All that really matters is how employers look at the time.

And that's really the bottom line. Not necessarily whether your prospective employer cares or not, but what you are using the time for.

The FAR only requires that you log the time that you need to show currency or the satisfaction of requirements for a certificate or rating. Beyond that, it's what other purposes that you want to use the time for.

For example, are you a private pilot working on the commercial? Acting as PIC/Safety Pilot for a friend may help you reach that 100 hours of logged PIC time and maybe even that 50 hours of logged 50+NM cross-country time. (Yup, you get to log cross-country without ever touching the controls or performing a landing — crap, I can just smell another argument brewing!)

I've known pilots who, in order to keep various requirements straight have multiple columns in their logbook to reflect different timekeeping requirements.

Separate PIC columns for Sole Manipulator, Safety Pilot PIC, Acting+Logging, and Acting-but-not-logable.

A Column for 50+ NM cross-countries (countable for most certificates and ratings) and separate columns for all cross-country time (any flight involving a landing at another airport that you didn't blunder over to by accident) and 50+ NM cross-countries without a landing (countable for ATP requirements)

Columns for high performance and complex (some insurance companies like to know this)

WHEW!!
Makes you appreciate a good computer logbook!

 

[cjh]

For example, are you a private pilot working on the commercial? Acting as PIC/Safety Pilot for a friend may help you reach that 100 hours of logged PIC time and maybe even that 50 hours of logged 50+NM cross-country time. (Yup, you get to log cross-country without ever touching the controls or performing a landing — crap, I can just smell another argument brewing!)

Yep, you're just asking for it! I'm just gonna' sit back and enjoy the fight for a while.