Logbook Issue - suggestions

[PositionandHold]

When I started instructing, for reasons that I regret having, I stopped logging landings. I have about 200hrs of dual given now, and no landings logged in that period.

I stopped logging them because most of them technically were not my landings. Is this going to be a problem?

Whether or not it is, if I want to retrolog these, how would I go about it? Would I just log a standard "1" for every lesson and/or guesstimate based on the lesson done, or should I just leave it?

Look forward to your suggestions

P&H

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Listen to that little inner voice.... his voice sounds much like the good brother (read:CYA) of the evil twin who works for the FAA.

 

[PositionandHold]

what





.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

...but moving forward, one idea is to split the landing box diagonally. In the top half, insert the digit for student or student-assisted, landings. In the bottom half, log the landings you perform as sole manipulator. As a CFI, you should be able to work in a few "demonstrations" for your student on how a proper pattern and landing is accomplished. You should in the very least be able to keep current under this method.

 

[PositionandHold]

Not a bad idea. The landing box is barely big enough for more than 2 digits as it is, though.

The problem I am having is what to do about the past landings that I did not log. Is there any standard protocol that people use? I was thinking just a standard 1.

 

[down2mins]

Do you need to log them for something in particular? (Maybe I'm missing something...)
I only log the landings I do / demo / recover.

 

[AC560]

Do you need to log them for something in particular?

Currency?

 

[down2mins]

Logging landings for currency that you don't do???

I don't log landings my students do while I'm just sitting there.

 

[AC560]

Logging landings for currency that you don't do???

I think you are misreading what he said. He hasn't logged any landings in the past 200hrs including landings he did.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

I just plop down a landing every few lessons if I can't remember (and usually I'm doing the right rudder to align the aircraft with the runway).

I would put down a few landings here or there (look at your students, the guys who had just started out on lessons 1-3 will be the guys you add landings to - maybe add a demo landing to someone you were working on landings with before solo). It looks weird if you add a single landing to each lesson.

 

[JediNein]

If I had to intervene to make sure we come out of the arrival alive, I log it.
If I don't, I don't.
If I have a long stretch where my clients don't need landing assistance, I ask 'em for a landing. I've never been refused.

The minimums are 3 in 90 days.

 

[down2mins]

I think you are misreading what he said. He hasn't logged any landings in the past 200hrs including landings he did.

Ah, gotcha. Sorry 'bout that.

I agree with Jedi Cheese...

 

[down2mins]

double post...

 

[midlifeflyer]

I'm completely confused by the post. It sounds like a CFI who

(1) didn't know the regulations well enough to know that he needed to maintain his own landing currency when giving primary instruction; and

(2) is trying to figure out whether it's a good idea to falsify his logbook by making some up.

I must be missing something.

BTW, I'll question (but not necessarily disagree) with part Jedi Nein's post. The standard for logging landings for currency is "sole manipulator of the controls" not "had to intervene."

Of course, if the intervention means that the student is just following along but the CFI is doing =all= the work, then the CFI probably is the "sole manipulator." If it's just "helping out," IMO, the CFI can't log it.

 

[AC560]

BTW, I'll question (but not necessarily disagree) with part Jedi Nein's post. The standard for logging landings for currency is "sole manipulator of the controls" not "had to intervene."

QUESTION: I have a question about Part 61 related to the landings a CFI can use to maintain currency for carrying passengers. FAR 61.57 (a)(1)(i) and (b)(1)(i) stating that the person must be the sole manipulator of the controls seems pretty straight forward to me. However, we've had some discussions about whether FAR 61.51(e)(3) - an authorized instructor may log as PIC time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor. For example, during the previous 90 days a CFI has one night flight and oversees his student doing 3 landings to a full stop. The CFI never touches the controls. However, the instructor is allowed to log the entire flight as PIC. Does this allow a CFI to count landings by the individual they're instructing toward his/her currency requirements for carrying passengers?

ANSWER: Ref. §61.57(a)(1)(i); No, an instructor cannot maintain/attain the §61.57 recent experience for takeoffs and landings while monitoring and critiquing takeoff and landings performed by another pilot/student. The application of the terminology "must be the sole manipulator of the controls" does apply to your question. Certainly, an instructor could use a takeoff or landing for currency if it is being demonstrated and the instructor is the SOLE MANIPULATOR OF THE CONTROLS. The rule [i.e., §61.51(e)(3)] allowing the instructor to log pilot-in-command does not suffice.

Source is John Lynch while it isn't a legal interpretation it is an interpretation by the guy who helped write the rules so would consider it sound.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Source is John Lynch while it isn't a legal interpretation it is an interpretation by the guy who helped write the rules so would consider it sound.

Well, on the other hand, the FAQ has been found to be wrong more than once, was removed by the FAA, and people told not to cite it. (That doesn't mean it was wrong on this one, just that it's dangerous to cite it fir much of anything other than an indication of how the FAA =might= approach an issue.)

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Well, on the other hand, the FAQ has been found to be wrong more than once, was removed by the FAA, and people told not to cite it. (That doesn't mean it was wrong on this one, just that it's dangerous to cite it fir much of anything other than an indication of how the FAA =might= approach an issue.)

I agree with you 100%.

 

[AC560]

That doesn't mean it was wrong on this one, just that it's dangerous to cite it fir much of anything other than an indication of how the FAA =might= approach an issue.

If you use it as a guideline for what you can't do you are reasonably safe, I wouldn't use it for a definitive source of things that I can do. In this case I think his interpretation is correct.

Key point in all this is make sure your log book is current and you are current (I like Logbook Pro for keeping track of currency).

 

[Goose Egg]

FWIW, I only log landings of which I was "sole manipulator" of the controls. I don't log landings where I assisted a student, because I was not sole manipulator. I was a manipulator, but not the sole manipulator, nor designated as such before the approach commenced. A student and I can both log PIC, but it seems a little sketchy to both claim credit for the same landing.

Besides, if I get my 3 every 90 days in category and class, then I don't really need to log landings where I assist, now do I.

My approach might be conservative, but at least it's legal.

-Goose

 

[JediNein]

BTW, I'll question (but not necessarily disagree) with part Jedi Nein's post. The standard for logging landings for currency is "sole manipulator of the controls" not "had to intervene."

Right. I wasn't quite clear there.

'Just helping out' is the student's landing.

'We'reallgonnadieifIdon'ttakeoverrightnow "my airplane!"' counts as my landing, if we actually touch down while proceeding with the go-around.

Ah, the joys of flight instructin'

 

[midlifeflyer]

If you use it as a guideline for what you can't do you are reasonably safe,

That's always true. When someone says, "Don't," (rightly or wrongly) its usually reasonably safe to obey.

 

[PositionandHold]

Sorry I neglected to keep up with this post. I should have clarified. I logged the landings that I needed as with several intro rides per month, I landed a lot "solely".

My question is simply the landings which my students did. I simply did not log the landings which were performed by my students, and I was trying to figure out if I should have logged those. Obviously, there was at least 1 landing per lesson, so putting one per each would not be falsifying.

 

[down2mins]

I don't make note of my students' landings, just make sure they put the correct # in their logbook before I sign it.

 

[flyinghunter]

Do you have a personal reason for wanting to log your students landings, are you trying to get some statistics on how many landings they take before solo or something like that. Beyond that I see no reason for logging thier landings. If it's in your logbook it looks like you did it, and there's no reason to make a reason for somebody to question your logbook during an interview in the future, if that's a desire for you. When I was flight instructing the only things that I logged and have on record are those things required by the FARs, like solo privaleges and things of that nature. But to answer your question, at least what I think it is. No, you don't need to log your students landings in your logbook, just those you did by yourself for currency. I think anybody looking through your logbook and seeing dual given and no landings will rightfully assume that your students made that landings. On a side note I never logged instrument approaches that my students did in IFR either. Although it's legal, I look at it the same as the landings, if I didn't do it, it didn't matter. Just made sure I'd fly an approach each month or so.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Sorry I neglected to keep up with this post. I should have clarified. I logged the landings that I needed as with several intro rides per month, I landed a lot "solely".

My question is simply the landings which my students did. I simply did not log the landings which were performed by my students, and I was trying to figure out if I should have logged those. Obviously, there was at least 1 landing per lesson, so putting one per each would not be falsifying.

Botton line is that your students' landings don't count for your for any regulatory reason and writing them up so that they look like they do can potentially lead to a logbook falsification charge, for which the standard penalty is revocation of all certificates and ratings.

The only good reason I've ever heard to log student landings is so that if your student loses his logbook, you can put them in. But since students don't have landing currency requirements, their landings (except for a few requirements like the 10 at night) don't mean anything, so even that reason is weak. But I guess if you recreate =everything= in your student's logbook in yours, might as well include their landings. But it seems to me there are better ways of keeping student records than in your logbook.

But - if you do, you have to make sure that all those student landings, which have the exact same regulatory significance as the landings you "do" sitting in seat 22B on UA 247, are entered in a way that makes them easily differentiated from the ones that count so that anyone looking at your logbook can tell the difference.

 

[N60OSU]

I don't think I would go back and change anything in your log. I would just start logging them going forward.

I also looged only those landings I actually performed. As an active instructor there are plenty of opportunities to maintain currency in the normal couse of providing instrction.

If you're worried about getting into trouble for being unable to demonstrate that you met the currency requirements prior to a given flight I wouldn't sweat it. I doubt any authority would say anything more to you than "do it from here on out."

 

[Fedora]

I can't believe this thread is even alive. Does this guy ever fly solo? 200 hours without a landing? What a maroon. If you ever want a job with the big boys, you are going to have to be PROFICIENT! If you showed up on my doorstep without showing any landings, I'd have some real questions in my mind. Are you just too cheap to buy the time or what? Do you figure you are just so good that you don't have to do any? Fly what you have to, log what you need.

 

[Fedora]

BTW, Positandhold, there IS a reaason for documenting your students landings/approaches/training maneuvers. Should he/she ever auger in, the Federalies will be all over you for documentaion. These are your private records. Be thorough, fair and honest about performance,and keep them confidential. If one of your students does something stupid and kills a bunch of folks, being able to say " I didn't see that problem" and having documentation is worth a lot. Flight instruction is serious stuff. Plese take it seriously! These guys saying you don't have to track student's landings are right from a legal standpoint, but I'd feel better being able to tell the fed's exactly what a student got while flying with me. just my thoughts on the subject.