Live where you want?

[Alex429595]

I was having a discussion with my roomate over dinner, and he seems very sure that he is going to end up having a pilot job in Denver. In fact, he says that he wont apply for a pilot job anywhere else. He wants to be a corporate pilot, and he says that Denver is a huge place for corporate aviation, and he feels that he has a very very good shot at settling down in Denver. He would rather CFI in Denver the rest of his life then fly anywhere else, regardless of pay.


I, on the other hand, hold this belief: Once I get done with school, and get my CFI, I am going to start applying for CFI jobs everywhere. Once I put in my dues there, I plan on applying for cargo flying jobs, night, single pilot type of deals. I will apply for these jobs and move wherever I have to. After that, I plan on moving on up, and moving where I have to until I obtain a good corporate job that pays well, and supports a family. I recognize that I dont have a lot of control over where I end up. It will probably be a major city.


What do you guys think?

 

[snow-back]

Everyone has their own priorities. It sounds like your friend would rather live in Denver and be happy, than chase what someone else perceives to be the "dream job". Everybody has their own reasons and justifications for doing things.

As Sheryl Crow says, the important thing is not having what you want, but wanting what you have. I wish I would have realized that about ten years ago.

I wish both of you good luck.

 

[mcjohn]

Trying to make these decisions absolutely sux. I think the only way to make a living while building time for the "dream job" is to work a 2nd job while instructing or towing banners. This has got to be the single most difficult industry to break into and when you get your 1st break you usually take a pay or QOL cut. Not to mention, what do you do if you went to one of those acadamies and spent 60-70 g's and try to deal with that debt while CFIing etc...Ahhhgg!!! I'm all pissie !

Actually, I got everything so far for around 30 g's and my wife is sweet enough to have helped pay off some of the debt so far so I should shut up.

Wait a second, I'm a bellman in a hotel and flight instructing ~5 hours a week! I'm still pissie!!!!

 

[Ender]

Trying to make these decisions absolutely sux. I think the only way to make a living while building time for the "dream job" is to work a 2nd job while instructing or towing banners. This has got to be the single most difficult industry to break into and when you get your 1st break you usually take a pay or QOL cut. Not to mention, what do you do if you went to one of those acadamies and spent 60-70 g's and try to deal with that debt while CFIing etc...Ahhhgg!!! I'm all pissie !

Actually, I got everything so far for around 30 g's and my wife is sweet enough to have helped pay off some of the debt so far so I should shut up.

Wait a second, I'm a bellman in a hotel and flight instructing ~5 hours a week! I'm still pissie!!!!

Im a student pilot at one of those "academies" and ill be 100 g indebt when its all said and done. Its never easy...but i am prepared to accept the consequences.

 

[mcjohn]

Im a student pilot at one of those "academies" and ill be 100 g indebt when its all said and done. Its never easy...but i am prepared to accept the consequences.

I'm speechless. Really I am. Let me know if I can help (moral not monetary). Good luck.

Wait a second, before I come across looking like a D. head, how old are you. I'm 30 and maybe that's why I have such a problem here. I'm married, want to have a family, and get any kind of half way good flyin' job like yesterday.
Having that kind of debt would ruin me. I do own a house that cost more than 100g but that's good debt. I imagine if I were still say 18 to 21, single and had nothing more to worry about than chasing that dream and looking foward to the adventure of relocating a lot then I could carry that debt a little better.

I never made more than 15k a year until about 5 years ago. Then I found a job making close to 30k, met my wife, could split the bills, and started flight training. My PPL cost me 12 grand at a part 141 school and ever since then I've had this problem with the cost. What happened to the good ol days when flying wasn't just for the rich kids. blah blah blah...................
I don't even know what I talking anymore. BEDTIME

 

[Ender]

well im smart enough to know not to share with everyone my age but lets just say the debt isnt going to be easy to pay off. I concur with you about the debt ruining you...it will definately ruin me...but im banking on living in the ditches for 10 or so years until i get it paid off in hopes of eventually coming out on top in a career that i enjoy and will financially support me and my family.

 

[threegreen]

I think you have to enjoy the journey or you will get burned out. Don't move where you won't be happy just so you can 'pay your dues' with the hope of a better job down the road because that road may be longer than you think... and when you get there that better job may not be all it's cracked up to be.

 

[ePilot22]

CFIing in DEN

He wants to be a corporate pilot, and he says that Denver is a huge place for corporate aviation, and he feels that he has a very very good shot at settling down in Denver. He would rather CFI in Denver the rest of his life then fly anywhere else, regardless of pay.

Denver is a great city, but I hope your friend does some research before comitting to Denver.

Making a living as a CFI in Denver is brutal. There is a huge CFI base and not a lot of students. The weather can change quickly and is hard to predict. High winds, turbulence (usually an airmet for light to mod below 18,000'), freezing temps (a lack of flyable IFR), high density altitudes in the summer. The cost of housing is sky rocketing. A quality one bedroom apt. can go for $800 or more. Traffic sucks!

On the other hand, when the weather is good, the flying is GREAT! Of course everybody and their mom is out flying too. Most rental aircraft have a fair hourly rate (Cessna 172RG from $80 to $90 and hour). Great experience flying in and around Class B airspace. The mountain flying in the summer time is unbelievable!

Just a heads up...


eP.

 

[Ender]

Denver is a great city, but I hope your friend does some research before comitting to Denver.

Making a living as a CFI in Denver is brutal. The is a huge CFI base and not a lot of students. The weather can change quickly and is hard to predict. High winds, turbluance (usually an airmet for light to mod below 18,000'), freezing temps (a lack of flyable IFR), high density altitudes in the summer. The cost of housing is sky rocketing. A quality one bedroom apt. can go for $800 or more. Traffic sucks!

On the other hand, when the weather is good, the flying is GREAT! Of course everybody and their mom are out flying too. Most rental aircraft have a fair hourly rate (Cessna 172RG from $80 to $90 and hour). Great experience flying in and around Class B airspace. The mountain flying in the summer time is unbelievable!

Just a heads up...


eP.

I live in Denver and it is a great city..i grew up there and the weather in Denver is often better than 70 percent of the country. Flying is difficult due to the class b and high traffic volumes from DIA and Centennial but there are alot of CFI positions open and alot of need for pilots. The cost of living is increasing but its so much better than california or some place like that.

 

[shamrock]

well im smart enough to know not to share with everyone my age but lets just say the debt isnt going to be easy to pay off. I concur with you about the debt ruining you...it will definately ruin me...but im banking on living in the ditches for 10 or so years until i get it paid off in hopes of eventually coming out on top in a career that i enjoy and will financially support me and my family.

So you admit that getting into that much debt will "ruin you" but your still doing it? I'm not trying to sound harsh here, believe me, but getting into that much debt for this industry is scary. And you're going to have to find a job (or wife) that pays pretty well to be able to pay down $100,000 in 10 (or so) years.

Again, I'm not trying to sound harsh, but I remember being willing to do anything I could to get into this industry, including going into major debt. In hindsight, I'm very happy that nobody was willing to loan me that kind of money at that time. $5000 in credit card debt is enough to depress me, I can't even imagine seeing a $100,000 balance.

And revealing your age isn't that big a big deal here.

 

[Ender]

So you admit that getting into that much debt will "ruin you" but your still doing it? I'm not trying to sound harsh here, believe me, but getting into that much debt for this industry is scary. And you're going to have to find a job (or wife) that pays pretty well to be able to pay down $100,000 in 10 (or so) years.

Again, I'm not trying to sound harsh, but I remember being willing to do anything I could to get into this industry, including going into major debt. In hindsight, I'm very happy that nobody was willing to loan me that kind of money at that time. $5000 in credit card debt is enough to depress me, I can't even imagine seeing a $100,000 balance.

And revealing your age isn't that big a big deal here.

well regardless i dont think ill share that sort of information. In any case this isnt credit card debit...im not that stupid. This is an investment as much as anything is. By using good common sense and sensibility...as well as living modestly for about 10 years will be all i need to survive the 100g...its no different than buying a house. Hey...nobody here doesnt think 110g isnt alot of money, lord knows i know its a lot of money, but i would rather be in debt and in the industry, doing something i love to do, than living comfortably doing a dead end job. Thats just the way it is, i would rather live in the ditches and barely scrap by as long as im enjoying life.

 

[Dangerkitty]

well regardless i dont think ill share that sort of information. In any case this isnt credit card debit...im not that stupid. This is an investment as much as anything is. By using good common sense and sensibility...as well as living modestly for about 10 years will be all i need to survive the 100g...its no different than buying a house. Hey...nobody here doesnt think 110g isnt alot of money, lord knows i know its a lot of money, but i would rather be in debt and in the industry, doing something i love to do, than living comfortably doing a dead end job. Thats just the way it is, i would rather live in the ditches and barely scrap by as long as im enjoying life.

The bigger question should be why are you paying 100k for all your ratings? I didn't pay anywhere near that to get all my ratings.

You sir are getting screwed if you are paying that much.

 

[Dangerkitty]

I was having a discussion with my roomate over dinner, and he seems very sure that he is going to end up having a pilot job in Denver. In fact, he says that he wont apply for a pilot job anywhere else. He wants to be a corporate pilot, and he says that Denver is a huge place for corporate aviation, and he feels that he has a very very good shot at settling down in Denver. He would rather CFI in Denver the rest of his life then fly anywhere else, regardless of pay.

Tell your friend he needs to do better homework. I have been told that Denver is one of the tighest markets out there when it comes to Corporate Aviation. Maybe he has some connections. If so he is going to really need them.

 

[Alex429595]

well regardless i dont think ill share that sort of information. In any case this isnt credit card debit...im not that stupid. This is an investment as much as anything is. By using good common sense and sensibility...as well as living modestly for about 10 years will be all i need to survive the 100g...its no different than buying a house. Hey...nobody here doesnt think 110g isnt alot of money, lord knows i know its a lot of money, but i would rather be in debt and in the industry, doing something i love to do, than living comfortably doing a dead end job. Thats just the way it is, i would rather live in the ditches and barely scrap by as long as im enjoying life.

Except that when you invest in a house, it appreciates over time, and you can usually sell it, pay off the mortgage, and have money left over. When you are in debt for real estate, it is whats called "good" debt. To put it another way, your money is working for you.

You could make the same argument regarding putting the money into college. Since getting a degree will presumably mean that you make a lot more money in your career then someone who didnt get one, it should be worth the 100 grand, because you will now have the means to make money and pay it off. Now, if you make a lot of bad moves in your career, like working for mesa at 17 K a year for the rest of your life, wasting another 100K at some PFT scam like Tab Express (now defunct), or gulfstream academy, or really a multitude of what I like to call mirages in this industry; ie, things that might look really good to young, naive, SJS infected CFIs, but in actually are stupid moves that not only bring themselves down, but really the entire industry. It is possible to succeed in this industry- you just have to be smart. Don't be afraid to work hard, and pay your dues. Don't ever get the attitude that flying night cargo in a twin piston or turboprop is below you. In other words, don't let SJS get the best of you. There are success stories out there- you just have to make the right choices.

 

[Alex429595]

The bigger question should be why are you paying 100k for all your ratings? I didn't pay anywhere near that to get all my ratings.

You sir are getting screwed if you are paying that much.

Yea, but you are also getting a college degree. Its still more money than getting your ratings at the local FBO and majoring in buisness at U of (insert state here), but some would say its worth it.

 

[ePilot22]

Ok, I didn't want to...

but I here is goes.

This is an investment as much as anything is.

An investment requires a return greater than what you put in, an EXPENSE does not. I don't know what you are getting for 100k, but OUCH ! That's a lot of money for flight training and an education!

Flying is difficult due to the class b and high traffic volumes from DIA and Centennial but there are alot of CFI positions open and alot of need for pilots. The cost of living is increasing but its so much better than california or some place like that.

There is high traffic volume at FNL, 2V2, GXY and BJC as well. I see that you're not a CFI working in Denver, so please try and tell me what it is like... .

Here's the current METAR and TAF for BJC:

KBJC 111757Z 26030G40KT 50SM SCT100 OVC200 14/M16 A2980


KBJC 111820Z 111818 26025G35KT P6SM SCT080 SCT130 BKN200 WS003/27045KT
FM0200 23015KT P6SM SCT140 BKN200
FM1000 31015G25KT P6SM SCT120 BKN200
FM1300 34018G30KT P6SM SCT120 BKN200
FM1600 32015G25KT P6SM SCT120 SCT250

It has been like this for the last week, it kinda makes instructing a little difficult...



eP.

 

[Ender]

but I here is goes.



An investment requires a return greater than what you put in, an EXPENSE does not. I don't know what you are getting for 100k, but OUCH ! That's a lot of money for flight training and an education!



There is high traffic volume at FNL, 2V2, GXY and BJC as well. I see that you're not a CFI working in Denver, so please try and tell me what it is like... .

Here's the current METAR and TAF for BJC:

KBJC 111757Z 26030G40KT 50SM SCT100 OVC200 14/M16 A2980


KBJC 111820Z 111818 26025G35KT P6SM SCT080 SCT130 BKN200 WS003/27045KT
FM0200 23015KT P6SM SCT140 BKN200
FM1000 31015G25KT P6SM SCT120 BKN200
FM1300 34018G30KT P6SM SCT120 BKN200
FM1600 32015G25KT P6SM SCT120 SCT250

It has been like this for the last week, it kinda makes instructing a little difficult...



eP.

regardless i still know what the weather is like...and for the past three weeks prior to this one the weather has been in the vast majority to be very pleseant...you cant make an argument about one day...look at the trends. Fly in minnesota...or some place north...then talk to me about the bad weather in Denver. Denver has some of the mildest winters ive seen for a place untropical and not a desert. it has mild winters and mild summers...its ideal. Ill give you that winds have been unusally high...but fly in the mornings before the winds pick up. Im not pretending to know how difficult it is for you to instruct...but i do know that regardless, if you work hard enough at something you can make it work. I know many cfi's in the denver area that make it work, they live just fine...so please try to tell me how some people are able to make due...but you arent? Perhaps its a lifestyle choice......i dont know you or how you live...but i do know people who CFI in denver and make it work...so the question is...what sacrafices do you have to make in order to make it work.

 

[ePilot22]

Ummm...

Ender,

Really quickly, are we talking about Denver, COLORADO? There is also a Denver, Texas.

Ill give you that winds have been unusally high...

Althought it's NOT unusual, at least not in Denver, COLORADO.

Im not pretending to know how difficult it is for you to instruct...

It's not difficult for me to instruct, it's challenging but very enjoyable!

I know many cfi's in the denver area that make it work, they live just fine...so please try to tell me how some people are able to make due...but you arent?

Oh, I'm making due just fine, never said I wasn't. I did say it was a crowded market for CFIs in Denver...that's COLORADO. But what would I know huh?

Leave the issue alone, until you've been there.


eP.

 

[Ender]

Ender,

Really quickly, are we talking about Denver, COLORADO? There is also a Denver, Texas.



Althought it's NOT unusual, at least not in Denver, COLORADO.



It's not difficult for me to instruct, it's challenging but very enjoyable!



Oh, I'm making due just fine, never said I wasn't. I did say it was a crowded market for CFIs in Denver...that's COLORADO. But what would I know huh?

Leave the issue alone, until you been there.


eP.

Yes of course we are talking about denver colorado...and no...i will not leave the issue alone. I have lived in denver my entire life and winds are not that big of a deal...go out to the plains...where there is nothing and then tell me about high winds...seriously...if you are complaining about the weather in Denver...then you havent flown elsewhere. Go to minnisota...go to idaho...go to montana...ask the CFI's up there how well they are dealing with the weather...you are spoiled in Colorado as far as weather goes.

 

[ePilot22]

Ok, whatever then...

I have lived in denver my entire life

So have I, all 26 years. Again you're not telling me anything I don't know.

seriously...if you are complaining about the weather in Denver...then you havent flown elsewhere.

I'm not complaining about anything, except you. Please...you have 60hrs, tell me about flying in weather.

Go to minnisota...go to idaho...go to montana...ask the CFI's up there how well they are dealing with the weather...you are spoiled in Colorado as far as weather goes.

Go annoy your mom or something. You have no idea what you're even taking about.


eP.

 

[Dangerkitty]

This is GREAT!!!! Watching a wet behind the ears clueless private pilot trying to tell an instructor what is what.

Have fun paying off that 110k student loan making 20k a year junior.

 

[Ender]

So have I, all 26 years. Again you're not telling me anything I don't know.



I'm not complaining about anything, except you. Please...you have 60hrs, tell me about flying in weather.



Go annoy your mom or something. You have no idea what you're even taking about.


eP.

those 60 hours have shown me enough about flying in weather to discuss it with you.

 

[ePilot22]

I think it's getting dark in here...

This is GREAT!!!! Watching a wet behind the ears clueless private pilot trying to tell an instructor what is what.

Thanks DK!

What’s pathetic is I keep trying to help him understand. I don’t even think he’s actually reading what I post, but whatever.

It is funny.

those 60 hours have shown me enough about flying in weather to discuss it with you.

...ok... .



eP.

 

[Dangerkitty]

those 60 hours have shown me enough about flying in weather to discuss it with you.

That might be the statement that you will want to be put on your tombstone.

Comments such as that show you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

 

[Alex429595]

That might be the statement that you will want to be put on your tombstone.

Comments such as that show you have no clue as to what you are talking about.

Personally, I have nearly 200 hours, and I have an enormous amount of respect for mother nature. Weather will kill you just as fast as anything else in this business. Ive barely begun to explore the insides of clouds- its just a hostile envirornment, plain and simple.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Personally, I have nearly 200 hours, and I have an enormous amount of respect for mother nature. Weather will kill you just as fast as anything else in this business. Ive barely begun to explore the insides of clouds- its just a hostile envirornment, plain and simple.

Alex,

Thats a good attitude. I have almost 8000 hours and I am still learning when it comes to weather. Just when you think you have seen it all mother nature will snap you back to reality and remind you that you are always learning.

A pilot that thinks he/she knows it all when it comes to weather would be better served by throwing away his or her tickets and taking up golf.

 

[Alex429595]

Alex,

Thats a good attitude. I have almost 8000 hours and I am still learning when it comes to weather. Just when you think you have seen it all mother nature will snap you back to reality and remind you that you are always learning.

A pilot that thinks he/she knows it all when it comes to weather would be better served by throwing away his or her tickets and taking up golf.

I got my certificate at a part 61 school back home in the Northeast. I was trained in an envirornment where I was allowed to make my mistakes, scare myself, and learn my lessons about weather. Thats one of the things I take issue with here at UND- too many students simply call the flight restrictions line to see whether or not UND is "no fly" "dual only" or "no restrictions." People really need to get out, flying as PIC, and get some experience. Experience is the best teacher, and at 60 hours, 200 hours, and even 10,000 hours, there is no reason for anyone to think they have mastered weather. If you think you have mastered weather, it will surely show you who is boss.

 

[pilotyip]

There is a story two pilots live in Atlanta, both want to spend the rest of their lives in ATL. Both set their sights on DAL while CFIing. Pilot A takes 135 job in CCVG, Pilot B continues applying to DAL, a couple years later pilot A gets hired by ComAir, pilot B is still CFIing. 5 years later pilot A is hired by DAL, pilot B is still CFIing. What is the morale to this story "You have left your hometown for awhile to make it in this business".

 

[thatpilotguy]

I'm a Colorado native. I have been in Corporate Aviation for several years now. I started my career here in Denver before the company that I was flying for went belly up. I left Colorado for a couple of years and flew for a company out of state but kept the search going for the right opportunity back here in Colorado. I'm happy to say that I am back in Colorado and have a nice Corporate flying gig. It's not my dream job, but I'm still young and needing to gain experience. I would not refer to Colorado as a Corporate Aviation Mecca. In my opinion California, Florida, Texas...and many others have far more opportunities than Colorado. It's really all a matter of how hard you want it and how hard you are willing to work for it. And at some point, it might mean moving away and gaining that much needed experience just so that you can come back to the Mile High City. With that said...GO BRONCOS!

 

[Alex429595]

There is a story two pilots live in Atlanta, both want to spend the rest of their lives in ATL. Both set their sights on DAL while CFIing. Pilot A takes 135 job in CCVG, Pilot B continues applying to DAL, a couple years later pilot A gets hired by ComAir, pilot B is still CFIing. 5 years later pilot A is hired by DAL, pilot B is still CFIing. What is the morale to this story "You have left your hometown for awhile to make it in this business".

So if you live in Atlanta and want to fly for DAL, you have a pretty good shot, ATL being DALs hub and all. My roomate seems to be dead set on flying corporate aviation in Denver. No one is saying that is impossible, but it seems that if you unwilling to "cut the cord," and move to where the jobs are offered, you are going to have a much harder time in the industry. I will always remember what one of my early CFIs told me when I first started flying. I told him I loved my hometown, and didnt want to move away and fly somewhere else. He told me that if I was unwilling to travel around quite a bit, I was certainly in the wrong field. Most of the CFIs who taught me during primary training are gone. Some are flying cargo in the northeast, some are flying for airlines out of the big hub cities, and some have moved on to other parts of the world to pursue their dreams of flying. You cannot be resistant to change, and succeed in this industry.