Livable wage

[Catbert]

Here it is: A "livable wage" for an airline pilot is higher than a "livable wage" for say a "post office employee."

Why? Lost income and savings (most likely incurring debt) in the pursuit of a career vs a career which costs less (or nothing) to attain.

Hmmm, now that is an interesting idea. I gotta make more just to buy groceries, because I gotta spend $xxx a month first to pay loans. I see what you're saying. I just don't know if it's included in the definition of livable wage.

 

[nonstop]

Look nonstop. No one here is arguing with your ideas, just the semantics.

The original poster asked what a living wage is. It's a known, defined amount.

It has nothing to do with airline pilots or construction workers, only location and daily living expenses. Visit the Wikipedia link I posted above for a good definition. It's not a made-up phrase. Living wage is what it takes to survive in your neck of the woods.

What you're talking about is how much money it takes to:
a) pay off the money we spent to get into this profession
b) compensate us for the skill we demonstrate and responsibility we exercise daily
c) pay our daily expenses
d) pay for our retirement

These are very real concerns. Just not the definition of livable wage.

What you're talking about is more like the poster above said: a fair (or reasonable) wage.

These are certainly NOT semantics!!!

If you want to compare a job which requires ZERO time and effort to attain, to a job that requires MONEY and effort to attain you must ACKNOWLEDGE the time and money it takes to attain it!!!

To not acknowledge that, is to say a construction job and an airline pilot job are equal, if they both pay $50,000 a year.

There is a HUGE difference in the lost earnings and savings between the two even if they pay the same. Listen, don't feel dumb but financial education is totally lacking in this country and it's bleeding from your posts. Do you realize (if you're an airline pilot) how far BEHIND you are from your investments compared to someone who invested nothing to attain the same salary? Thus the conclusion is the "livable wage" as this poster was curious about is GROSSLY different from an individual that started earning at 18 and an individual that incurred debt and started earning at 22!!! To consider a "livable wage" and not consider retirement is like not considering health insurance.

 

[nonstop]

Hmmm, now that is an interesting idea. I gotta make more just to buy groceries, because I gotta spend $xxx a month first to pay loans. It's an interesting idea.

I'm taking that as sarcasm? If it's not, I truely feel sorry for you.

 

[nonstop]

Hmmm, now that is an interesting idea. I gotta make more just to buy groceries, because I gotta spend $xxx a month first to pay loans. I see what you're saying. I just don't know if it's included in the definition of livable wage.

How can it NOT be considered? It's not VOLUNTARY it's a debt you owe that someone who didn't incur the debt doesn't owe and can contribute to their retirement (which will continue to compound and put them even FARTHER in front of you as far as net worth). Meanwhile a chunk of your "livable wage" goes to your training/school costs.

Jesus christ are you guys not planning for retirement? It's not an option in this career it's a necessity and will take place at 60 until/unless the legislation is changed. Even then, it's most likely you'll medical out before then and have to retire anyway.

 

[DoinTime]

Thus the conclusion is the "livable wage" as this poster was curious about is GROSSLY different from an individual that started earning at 18 and an individual that incurred debt and started earning at 22!!! To consider a "livable wage" and not consider retirement is like not considering health insurance

I agree with your pricipal but I think you grossly overstate it. When looking at a lifetime of earnings the disparity of $60-70,000 in college degree/flight training and four years of lost income becomes slim.

In one of your early posts you ellude that a professional pilot needs to earn double that of a lesser trained worker ($50,000/yr increase to use your example). Thats a $1,400,000 increase in lifetime earnings over a 28 year career. Surely $1.4 million will cover school loans.

 

[Catbert]

nonstop,

Look. I don't disagree with you on any particular point so far. We (pilots) need to make more money than someone with no debt or extended training just to break even.

There's just an existing definition of Livable Wage. Right or wrong, the definition already exists. Period.

What we're talking about here is apparently not it. Maybe we need to define a new term, though I'm not going to suggest what it might be.

My wife has an advanced degree, she makes diddley. I'm a CFI, I make less than diddley. Unfortunately, we borrowed a lot to get here. Therefore, we pay more than $1000/month in student loans. Friends and in-laws have high school diplomas and associate degrees. Yet they buy nice cars, own houses, and generally have a good 'ol time while we rent and drive around in old beaters. Why? No debt for them, that's why.

I know exactly what you're saying. AND I AGREE.

I make a LIVABLE WAGE according to local expenses. However, in our circumstance, we have to make substantially more than that to live comfortably in our town and pay for our educations.

 

[yzf6]

from my limited experience at a couple of "entry level" aviation jobs.. if you're at a regional/instructing/etc the minimum livable wage will always be 150-200% of whatever your paycheck says

 

[NoPax]

Originally Posted by NoPax
Living wage shouldn't have to cover your training expenses. Living wage should only cover your housing, essential bills, and food.

Training expenses should be viewed as motivation...that said, I agree that any professional pilot should be paid more than construction workers, but for different reasons - ie medical exam, and proficiency checks generally every 6 months can put you out of business.

If I had to guess it's probably about 125% poverty line. (that's the figure USCIS use for immigration sponsors).


You're describing poverty wages. If you don't make enough to cover the training required to enter your position, only your food and shelter... then you're netting a negative amount which will subsequently result in bankruptcy.


Holy christ they need to have financial education inserted into our elementary schools. I thought basic algebra would have been enough but apparently connecting the dots is too difficult for some

Don't you know how to rub people up the wrong way?...My education, thankfully, wasn't in the USA, it was at RBAI, look it up why don't you?

I think you need to take English Comprehension with all those "I misspoke", "misread" etc.

You can take livable wage as a base, and add to it making it a fair wage...no-one said anything about being only paid livable wage.

You got yourself in your position, if you don't like it, or if it isn't what you thought it would be you can only blame yourself - because that's what it sounds like from here.

 

[Sinca3]

For me...........$120,000 per year is a livable wage!!!

 

[suupah]

To me, a livable wage is one where you are able to meet your financial obligations. Which means total debt payments equal to half or less of your income. Total debt calculated as normal for the profession including student loans plus mortgage. If you buy an outrageously expensive house or run up credit cards or buy expensive cars that is not included.

Pilots should make as much as other professionals such as accountants plus a little more for the lifestyle ie, crashpads, high cost of education, time away from home expenses etc.

unfortunately we are worth what we are willing to work for and that ain't much.