Liquid cooling Lycoming conversion

[VNugget]

http://www.liquidcooledairpower.com/products.shtml
http://www.liquidcooledairpower.com/cj-overview.shtml

So I just stumbled on this today, and read all about it. Basically, it's a kit to convert most Lycoming 360/540 series to liquid cooled, and comes with cylinders, pump, radior, and all necessary accesories or plumbing. Seems pretty neat, overall. The thermostat holds CHT at a steady 200 degrees, so you get longer engine life, especially at the top end due to less temperature differential across all the different parts of the head. And totally eliminates shock cooling/heating. The sales pitch seems kind of overblown with TBO this and TBO that, but there's probably a gem of truth in there. At the obvious cost of weight and complexity (more points of failure.)

So the question is... does anyone know, or have heard of, anyone who has this installed? If so, what are the experiences? I had never heard of this until today, and the website doesn't boast any sales stats. They say it's been in development for years, and they flew it on a Cherokee in 2003. The kit is up for sale now.

Speaking of their Cherokee with the closed cowl... Wow.. it just looks so wrong, yet, so right.. at the same time. And here's a pic of the engine.

 

[coloneldan]

I never heard of it. The problem I have is it still uses Lycoming cranks. I don't own a certified airplane. But I wouldn't buy a Lycoming of any type that had a Lycoming crank. They are intent on removing all hammer forged cranks from service. Once that is complete, I'm sure they will start on the rest. Why shouldn't they. As it is now, they are requiring removal of cranks with no history of problems. It's just more money in their pockets.

Buy one with a Superior crank.

 

[VNugget]

They don't sell complete engines, just cylinders and the required accesories, which go on your own engine.

 

[coloneldan]

I know, that's my point. I would pay more for any Lycoming engine that had an aftermarket crank than I would for one with a factory crank. I've seen this before. Lycoming is going to stick it to as many people as they can. They have to cover the costs of the legal battles. Plus, it's a good way to sell more parts. I don't know any mechanics who would replace a crankshaft and not overhaul the whole engine. Lycoming gets to sell gasket sets, bearings, pistons, rings, valves, springs, keepers, etc, etc, etc............

 

[VNugget]

Help me out here, I'm a little lost as to what that has to do with a set of replacement cylinders

 

[coloneldan]

Nothing. It's just that if I (I, me, myself) was buying or overhauling a Lycoming engine, I would put more importance on an aftermarket crankshaft, than I would liquid cooled cylinders.

 

[jknight8907]

Nothing. It's just that if I (I, me, myself) was buying or overhauling a Lycoming engine, I would put more importance on an aftermarket crankshaft, than I would liquid cooled cylinders.

Good for you. It has no bearing on the subject of this thread. Start your own thread.

 

[coloneldan]

Good for you. It has no bearing on the subject of this thread. Start your own thread.

OK, I'm sure I'm gonna catch H*** for this, but I'm already so p*ssed off this morning I'm ready to climb on the roof and start shooting people.

I made a comment on the original post. Vnugget missed my point. That the main problem I see with Lycoming engines is not the cylinders, it is the crank. (Please note: I have once again, attempted to clarify my original comment here. Not start a new thread.) I attempted to clarify my point. He missed it again. Again I had to clarify. Then you missed the whole d*** thing.

Is that plain enough or should I try to explain it again. Or maybe I should just go do something simple, like brain surgery.

Allright, let's have it. Go ahead and poke the junkyard dog. I don't give a rusty rat's a**.

 

[VNugget]

Okay, grouphug

 

[El Bucho]

I think RAM offers a liquid cooled engine option on the Cessna 414...Seen a couple but never talked to anybody that flew/owned one. Call RAM and maybe they can give you info on life expectancy etc...

 

[averyrm]

The one liquid cooled ram 414 I knew of was quite the hanger queen. More problems then solutions with the liquid cooling.

 

[sky37d]

I looked at a 414 Series V. The liquid cooled engine. This is what I know.
When Continental set out to make a liquid cooled engine, they decided it should help with shock cooling, steady engine temps, all the plusses. What they didn't do was completely re engineer the engine. Also, they don't produce in the volume that auto companies do.

RAM was contacted by Continental to develop an aftermarket installation for the liquid cooled engine, and they chose, wisely, the 414.

In the intial applications, RAM had problems with cooling, and it took them a while to solve that problem. Then they had problems with longevity. There were engines that needed complete overhauls after less than 600 hours. That wasn't a RAM issue as much as it was, and is, a Continetal issue. There was a long time where RAM would not do another Series V installation, only maintaining the existing fleet. The Voyager engine was also used in the Extra 400. Another short lived aircraft.

If cylinder tolerances are held like they are in auto engines, the liquid cooling solution is a good one, especially for turbo charged engines, and engines that fly high.

Continental has apparently solved the quality issues with the voyager engine, because there are not airplanes out there approaching TBO, with no issues.

Liquid cooling makes sense for turbo engines. Not much sense for non-turbo engines.

 

[A Squared]

I looked at a 414 Series V. The liquid cooled engine. This is what I know.
When Continental set out to make a liquid cooled engine, they decided it should help with shock cooling, steady engine temps, all the plusses. What they didn't do was completely re engineer the engine.

Yeah, and that was (one of the reasons) why it died a quiet, lonely death. One of the benefits to a liquid cooled engine is the compactness. Air cooled engines have to have the cylinders far enough apart to get sufficient fin area to get rid of the head. Air is a fairly poor carrier of heat. A liquid cooled engine can place the cylinder bores much colser together, you only have to have a narrow cooling galley between the cylinders. Why is that a benefit, other than the obvious one of size? Bottom end weight. LOnger cranks and crank cases are more flexible, so for a given number of cylinders and a given amount of power the crank and crank case has to be thicker (heavier) to give the same rigidity, there has to be more main brearings. Compare a 4 cylinder lycoming to say a Subaru engine, the crank is much shorter, heck, most V-8's are about the length of a 4 cylinder aircraft engine. So by just putting liquid cooled cylinders on an air cooled bottom end, you lose the benefit of having a shorter, lighter, stiffer, stronger bottom end. In short, all of hte disadvantages of air cooling, all of the disadvantages of a liquid cooled engine, and none of hte advantages of either. OK that's overstating it a little, but screwing liquid cooled cylinders on a air cooled engine is always going to be a bastardized affair. The best liquid coolled engine is going to be one that was designed from scratch to be liquid cooled