Lightning and nothing on radar

[LearLove]

The last several nights flying in NY and PA there has been alot of scatters stroms around but outside of the few true stroms we were seeing on radar (getting an actual return) there have been lines of clouds with very active lightning but nothing shows on radar.

Comming out of LGA an Monday going to syr late at night we went over to wilksbare then north to get around one big strom (with colgan in tow) but went thru the tops at 22000 of clouds that had very active lightning and like I said but no radar returns. We just had a few light bmps and no rain or any other convective activity.

The same thing happened going from dca to syr last night. There were several storms showing returns but they were far apart but there was an east west line of clouds with tops at like 15 to maybe 220 that had very active lightening and no returns. We went thru the clouds at 13000 about 60 mile from the closest true strom showing returns. It was very active with lightening but smooth and no rain.

What gives? How can you have lightening without the convective stuff. Also the lightening was not in the form of lightening bolts, just very bright and fequent brite flashes. Also non of the airports that were below this activity had anything on their atis about TS. Most of the atis were like 10 milws vis 7000 broken and light winds. Nothing that would indicate stroms.

Is this heat lightening, i was told there is no such thing.

Anybody got info....

 

[Lrjtcaptain]

The radar, at least my ASR and the one in the plane I used to fly only pics up returns on different levels of precip. You can have lightning and no precip. Happens all the time in the midwest during spring and summer.

 

[Lead Sled]

Radar is basically a "water detector". You can have "dry lightning" - we see it frequently out West. If you guys haven't taken advantage of a radar school I highly recommend it - there something for everyone to learn in them. The are two major courses - Dave Gwinn's and Arche Trammell's. I've been to both of them - Dave's is the better course.

Lead Sled

 

[Wiggums]

Where can I get info on these classes? Also, I heard there was an Archie video, anyone know where that can be found?

 

[Lead Sled]

Archie's stuff is available at: www.avionics.com/www/books/trammellwxradar.htm

I'm not sure if he still give the seminars, he was getting pretty close to retirement the last time I spoke with him. Over the years, I've probably attended 4 or 5 of his courses. They're pretty good, but I'd probably choose Dave Gwinn's course sponsered by Honeywell. I attended it a couple of years ago in Denver. It was excellent. I'm not sure how much they charged for the course, but I believe that it was free if you operate Honeywell Avionics. You can link into the Honeywell Course schedule at www.davegwinn.com. Like I said, I've been to 5 or 6 WX Radar courses over the past 16 years (The company that I worked for included them in our recurrent training sylibus.) and I don't care who you are, you will learn enough at either one of them to make the price of admission very worth while. I've seen Archies tapes and they work as well, the only problem with them is that you'll lose out on the group interaction. Hope this helps.

Lead Sled

 

[LearLove]

Thanks but its not a problem of working the radar

(not trying to sound like a jerk, recurrent and learning is good, I'd gladly go to any radar or other training seminar or buy CD's but a quick look to the left will tell you I'm not a mainline pilot and thus my pockets are not lined with C notes.)

its just that in 8 years of 135 or 121 flying in the NE I've never seen lightening that intense and nothing painting on radar. Just big puffy clouds and brite lightening (no bolts). It was a cool show though. the FA said the pax loved it.

I'll take the former anyday rather than the solid lines of armageddon that sweep across NY state from BUF to the catskill mtns. between June and sept.

Its so much fun to try to go from LGA to ROC when there's a solid line from somewhere in Canada stretching down and back to somewhere in TN moving at 40 plus. And dispatch will either tell you its clear or that there is a 4 ft. by 6 ft. hole in the red stuff just north of Elmira and if we get going we might get a wing tip in the hole before it closes up. To top it off nobody at NY or CLE center will let you over 20,000ft because jetboy is up there Visually dodging the stroms while we get stuck between 14 and 18 in the nice meaty section of the wx where its raining and you get to sit there and watch the radar attenuate or try to figure out whats a shadow and whats not. You learn fast though because when you F up you get to hear the hail ping off the side of the airplane.

 

[FN FAL]

I got a good radar workout yesterday, but the hole leading through the line of storms by the airport I departed, was best penetrated using MK1 MOD 0 eyeball system before picking up the IFR on the other side. Lots of lightning and rain in that line, but there was an area between them that had the faintest glimmer of sunlight between. The ride through there was smooth and netted me getting ahead of a front without having to chase into Canada.

I do know of a Falcon pilot telling me they took a lightning hit far away from any clouds and IF I remember correctly, the clouds they did see weren't all that big.

The lightning strike entered the nose wheel compartment and travelled out the wing tip, taking out the part of the tip.

I had smooth flying yesterday as I deviated around some really well defined cells...the worst of the turbulance came when I was in clouds along a shore line. I asked for four thousand while in this bank of clouds that had no echos and while I was making a feeble attempt at descending from six thousand at IDLE, I was climbing and getting the snot kicked out of me. It was the most violent turbulance I have ever seen. When I got out of the bottoms, it looked like the gods were having a battle in those clouds.

A turn over water eliminated the path through this really wierd ridge of cloud structure (which wasn't painting diddly on the radar). I then proceeded to stay outside of any clouds after that by following the lake michigan shore line.

After gettting settled down, I then went on a treasure hunt for all the clipboards, pens, water bottle and calculator that sought shelter in various new places in the cockpit...right next to where my balls were hiding.