Letter to ALPA's President

[braveheart]

What's Broke?

I'd love to know what you folks think the solution is?

If scope is "broken", then what do you suggest be done to protect flying (jobs) at any given carrier -- legacy or regional?

For a start, we must first objectively analyze what's not working. Only then can we start to explore alternatives.

One of the better documents on the subject is the RJDC's "Ten Things Every Airline Pilot Should Know About Scope" publication. It goes to great lengths to debunk many of the myths underlying today's dysfunctional scope clauses.

http://www.rjdefense.com/2003/10_Things_About_Scope.pdf

 

[braveheart]

If you haven't been keeping up with current events they are no longer an asset of Delta Air lines, inc.

If you haven't been keeping up with events, the ASA pilots joined ALPA in 1985. As ALPA members they're still entitled to request redress from their own union.

But I do find it interesting that someone purporting to be "pro-union" would direct fellow ALPA members to management in order to obtain that which is has long been promised by ALPA.

 

[General Lee]

Look, the Delta pilots can bargain first with the company, and if the company agrees, then a deal can be made. Without a deal, then the company is sunk. Therefore, the company has the ability to decide for themselves. Negotiations deal with scope, but in the end the company has to decide whether they want this thing flying or not.

The RJDC is full of LAZY pilots who like their seniority and do not want to start over, like most of us did. They never want to lose the LEFT SEAT, and they haven't even flown in the right seat since they flew the Bandirante to Texarkana back in '86. They love weekends off, and also want to keep their 4 weeks of vacation---so they can go to Myrtle Beach and watch people on the boardwalk.

IF YOU WANT TO FLY BIGGER PLANES, APPLY TO CONTINENTAL.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[~~~^~~~]

The President of the Association doesn't have the time to deal with a ragtag group of whiners that are trying to hold on to an already-failed lawsuit. .... Wasting the President's time with your petty lawsuit is not something that we need right now.

I take this to mean that ALPA only has time to represent "real" airline pilots, not its members who fly small jets.

THe small jet guys get to negotiate for the leftovers after all the big dogs have eaten? ASA can't have a contract because we don't know what scraps will be left over?

Sir, you are mistaken. ALPA members have the right to expect our National Union to abide by its Constitution and Bylaws. ALPA National fails when it fails to represent its members.

Small jet pilots and mainline pilots have the same issues. Scope, retirement, bankruptcies are issues that are facing all pilots, not just the chosen few who had a friend who knew Plato.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Just out of curiousity, why is ASA listed in this letter?

Because the lawsuit was triggered by ALPA's actions while Delta owned ASA and Comair.

 

[PCL_128]

I take this to mean that ALPA only has time to represent "real" airline pilots, not its members who fly small jets.

No, ALPA merely doesn't have time to deal with outrageous claims that everyone knows will be thrown out of the court eventually. If the "small jet" pilots had legitimate gripes, then that would be a different story. There is, and never has been, anything legitimate to what the RJDC has claimed. That makes it a waste of time and resources during a very difficult time in our Association's history.

Sir, you are mistaken. ALPA members have the right to expect our National Union to abide by its Constitution and Bylaws. ALPA National fails when it fails to represent its members.

ALPA has done nothing to break the C & BLs. On the contrary, the RJDC plaintiffs and supporters have violated their responsibility as a member because they are seeking to abrogate the labor agreement of another ALPA council. That is grounds for permanent explulsion from the Association, and I've always felt that that's what the Association should do. Time to rid the Association of these malcontents that sap valuable resources for their outrageous and petty claims.

 

[braveheart]

the RJDC plaintiffs and supporters have violated their responsibility as a member because they are seeking to abrogate the labor agreement of another ALPA council. That is grounds for permanent explulsion from the Association, and I've always felt that that's what the Association should do. Time to rid the Association of these malcontents that sap valuable resources for their outrageous and petty claims.

PCL,

The Duty of Fair representation and the right to seek judicial redress is part of the Railway Labor Act. To say that anyone who seeks to apply the law should be punished is the same as saying that the union is above the law. In fact, acts of retribution such as those you advocate are squarely prohibited by numerous federal laws.

So rather than threatening those who advocate reform, let's stick to the facts and have an honest forthright debate.

 

[braveheart]

IF YOU WANT TO FLY BIGGER PLANES, APPLY TO CONTINENTAL.

General,

You overlook the fact that according to ALPA's own submissions to the US Bankruptcy Court, it's the Delta MEC who has unilaterally offered to negotiate a 79-seat pay rate (19-seats smaller than anything currently in the Delta fleet.) Since you're apparently not advising your fellow Delta pilots to apply elsewhere in order to fly "smaller" airplanes, the flaws in your argument are more than evident.

More importantly, rather than acknowledge that each piloting job has value, you belittle your fellow aviators in an effort to avoid admitting that the union has an equal duty to each. Then you threaten that there cannot be an agreement at Delta unless the union violates its duties to the ASA and Comair pilots.

I think our union can do better than that, don't you?

 

[PCL_128]

PCL,

The Duty of Fair representation and the right to seek judicial redress is part of the Railway Labor Act. To say that anyone who seeks to apply the law should be punished is the same as saying that the union is above the law. In fact, acts of retribution such as those you advocate are squarely prohibited by numerous federal laws.

So rather than threatening those who advocate reform, let's stick to the facts and have an honest forthright debate.

Mr. Ford (that's who you are, right?), your lawsuit seeks to remove the scope language from the DAL CBA. If you are successful, that would mean the loss of jobs for hundreds or even thousands of Delta pilots. The ALPA C & BLs prohibit any member from attempting to circumvent or abrograte a fellow ALPA member's contract. Since that's exactly what your lawsuit attempts to do, then you should be expelled from the Association for good. Your lawsuit has no merit, and you are merely a nuisance at this point.

 

[Catbird]

"The ALPA C & BLs prohibit any member from attempting to circumvent or abrograte a fellow ALPA member's contract."

I'll go along with that. The AA MEC should be at the front of the line with that application. With LOA 81 as exhibit a. .Oh thats right Worthless Sh#T forgot he signed it. Keep up the good fight I enjoy seeing the pompus as*'s dance when the hot poker is crammed deep. My checks in the mail to the RJDC with a little extra for Christmas.

Fraternaly & Merry Christmas- CBIRD

 

[PCL_128]

My checks in the mail to the RJDC with a little extra for Christmas.

Keep on sending those checks. The lawyers keep getting richer and you'll never get anything for it. I figured some of you idiots would wise up when 9 of 10 claims were thrown out by the judge. I guess some people just never learn.

 

[braveheart]

The ALPA C & BLs prohibit any member from attempting to circumvent or abrograte a fellow ALPA member's contract... you should be expelled from the Association for good.

PCL,

The C&BL's serve as the supreme law within the union. If requesting that the C&BL's be equitably applied is akin to sedition, then the C&BL becomes unenforceable and essentially non-existent.

So let me ask you this. If the NWA pilots were to discover that the PCL pilots were engaged in activities that they believed contravened the ALPA's C&BL; what would be the appropriate course of redress for the NWA pilots?

 

[PCL_128]

So let me ask you this. If the NWA pilots were to discover that the PCL pilots were engaged in activities that they believed contravened the ALPA's C&BL; what would be the appropriate course of redress for the NWA pilots?

All of these problems should be addressed from within the Association. Going to a court of law in an attempt to bankrupt the Association and eliminate scope is reprehensible. In other words, if the NWA pilots suspected what you suggest, then they should go the BOD with a resolution to remove the offending pilots from the Association. It's as simple as that. The courts are not needed unless you are trying to steal something that doesn't belong to you like bigger airplanes or seniority that wasn't earned.

 

[General Lee]

General,

You overlook the fact that according to ALPA's own submissions to the US Bankruptcy Court, it's the Delta MEC who has unilaterally offered to negotiate a 79-seat pay rate (19-seats smaller than anything currently in the Delta fleet.) Since you're apparently not advising your fellow Delta pilots to apply elsewhere in order to fly "smaller" airplanes, the flaws in your argument are more than evident.

More importantly, rather than acknowledge that each piloting job has value, you belittle your fellow aviators in an effort to avoid admitting that the union has an equal duty to each. Then you threaten that there cannot be an agreement at Delta unless the union violates its duties to the ASA and Comair pilots.

I think our union can do better than that, don't you?

Braveheart,

Those 200 79 seat jets will be replacing which DL aircraft? Sounds to me like the 737-200s. We may negotiate for a 100 seat rate, but just like our current rates for the 737-700 and 737-900, those planes are nowhere to be seen. If the company will not guarantee a rate for the 100 seater and actual orders, then we must go for the 79 seater, which in reality is a 79 seater in a 90 seat body. We are not trying to bump you out of your 70 seaters that you have, rather ensure our current pilots and furloughed pilots still have a job, and not one in the right seat of one of your planes. Also, more mainline planes equals more mainline jobs, and possible career advancement---a la moving up to a widebody someday. You really should be ALL FOR IT, but your narrow view of your career is potentially hurting many other careers in the future. Even the judge has questioned and I quote "why can't the mainline pilots fly the 79 seat jets?" The Delta lawyer said it would be more expensive with our benefit package. The judge then YELLED back, "You see, this is all economic (they wanted free scope), and you(the company) had better come up with a $$ amount that is quantitative. The Delta pilots will get credit for that." It will cost them a lot of money to get scope back now, and maybe that will mean we will have a shot. You never know..... Let's hope for a fair agreement.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DwayneWorthless]

Message to ALPA

You Regional Guys need to wake up and smell the Coffee. As most of you are aware, ALPA cares only for your DUES. There is nothing you can do about it anyway. You're too scared to vote us off and we have too much money to defend our Majors from you. So, pay your DUES and cry someplace else.