Let's use 400K piano pushers as an example.

[SWA Bubba]

.

But it wasn't up to us. It was a business decision undertaken by management, and we had absolutely no say. Because we absolutely would have said no. We also can't change it. So we have to live with the results, and make the best of what the future holds.

Bubba[/QUOTE

No to rehash history or start a new fight, but you (the pilots)had a say in the intergration and you and your group chose to take as much from us as you could You used management to do your bidding. There was even a proposal to put our stapled guys behind your poolies. Next to AA's stapling of TWA it's the most lopsided intergration in the history of airline mergers. I'm living with it just like the TWA guys did, you won't hear me say anything about it. When you tell me how lucky I am I'll just nod and agree with you, while thinking something else. It's over, we got what we got, but for you to say you had no say in the intergration is completely false. To the victor go the spoils, and you won.

Sorry, you're engaging in revisionist history. We had the same "say" as your pilots did--a vote. Sure, some guys were chanting "staple" before negotiations started, but that wasn't realistic any more than the straight relative seniority integration some of your side wanted.

As you clearly seem to have forgotten, during the negotiations, management stepped in with the first list that they created, and the basic framework for everything else, and let the two committees actually hash out only the smallest of details. When the first agreement failed the AirTran MEC, the company stepped in with a slightly adjusted list, and an overall simpler agreement, including substantially fewer perks for you guys. Again, the two union committees themselves actually decided very little of anything. In fact, considerably less with the second agreement.

What happened essentially boiled down to both sides starting off negotiating with their openers, then the company stepped in and said to both sides, "this is what WE think is fair. Vote on it."

You want to be angry and persist in thinking that SWAPA "chose" to screw you personally, then knock yourself out. Nobody's going to believe you, though.

As if any union has that kind of power.

Bubba

 

[list2002]

That's weird, because I feel the same way and it was my airline that did the acquiring.

 

[fletch717]

Bubba, your management did not care where we fell on the list, but SWAPA did. SWAPA went to mgmt for help that's why we were threatened. An arbitrated list would have looked alot different and everybody knows it. No merger outside of the AA/TWA and SWA/AT deal put 20 year captains in the right seat, no arbitrator would have let that happen to a company that was not in bankruptcy.

 

[Clyde Frog]

What happened essentially boiled down to both sides starting off negotiating with their openers, then the company stepped in and said to both sides, "this is what WE think is fair. Vote on it."

BS.

If management truly thought that their proposal was fair, it wouldn't have included threats and ultimatums. By playing in the gutter, they admitted that their proposal was not fair or equitable. I wonder why that was? Clearly, SWAPA had a hand in this. A 3 year old could understand that. SWAPA can lick my balls.

 

[Clyde Frog]

And as if anyone needs more proof...

Let's not forget SWAPAs rally at HQ in Dallas supporting management as they were actively screwing over AirTran pilots.

To say SWAPA played no part is totally disingenuous at best and and more like an outright lie.

 

[mokitty]

And as if anyone needs more proof...

Let's not forget SWAPAs rally at HQ in Dallas supporting management as they were actively screwing over AirTran pilots.

To say SWAPA played no part is totally disingenuous at best and and more like an outright lie.

Two things:

1. I'm SWA and I don't feel as if I won anything with this acquis.....errrr merger

2. I was at that rally and it was NOT to support management. It was to support our union leadership who were meeting with management at the time. You see, we as line pilots were not happy with how the process was going. Too bad union leadership and the Comm Chair twisted the real reason we all stood in 100+ degrees with their Dallas Morning News sound bite.

 

[freightdogfred]

Every one I've talked to wishes that we hadn't bought AirTran in the first place, but rather used those billions of dollars to grow our company organically.

Bubba

Where do you come up with this drivel? SWA paid 1.4 billion for Airtran. 750 mil in cash, the rest in SWA stock. Airtran had 500 mil in the bank so net outlay was around 250 mil. GK told you why-gates, routes,planes, LGA and DCA slots, and all the ATL gates. Far cheaper to acquire than "grow organically" and he says SWA will reap 400 million in synergies this year.
You're a stockholder, go to the shareholders meeting a table a proposal to replace him for his incompetence.

 

[Clyde Frog]

Here ya go, I fixed it for you...

2. I was at that rally and it was NOT to support management. It was to support our union leadership who were meeting with management at the time to discuss the next step in their combined effort to further screw over the AirTran pilots

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, your management did not care where we fell on the list, but SWAPA did. SWAPA went to mgmt for help that's why we were threatened. An arbitrated list would have looked alot different and everybody knows it. No merger outside of the AA/TWA and SWA/AT deal put 20 year captains in the right seat, no arbitrator would have let that happen to a company that was not in bankruptcy.

Where the hell do you get this stuff?! Management most certainly DID care how the list was made. They made it. I suppose they knew that two groups would have a hard time seeing each other's side, and the list was what THEY thought was fair. They did so because they wanted a quick, NON-arbitrated agreement for the pilots. They also made that plainly clear at the outset. They specifically did not want years of infighting like the AWA/USAir debacle. SWAPA did not go to management for help and to get you "threatened." That part happened solely because your MEC refused to put forth the agreement for a vote--an agreement that management created and thought was extraordinarily generous.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Bubba, your management did not care where we fell on the list, but SWAPA did. SWAPA went to mgmt for help that's why we were threatened. An arbitrated list would have looked alot different and everybody knows it. No merger outside of the AA/TWA and SWA/AT deal put 20 year captains in the right seat, no arbitrator would have let that happen to a company that was not in bankruptcy.

As far as an arbitrated list goes, you're absolutely correct--no one knows how it would have looked. There are a lot of people on this side who think they would have gotten a better list if there had been an arbitration.

And your "20-year captain in the right seat" remark is a red herring (not that you even had any at the time). Your senior guys will indeed be Southwest captains, just not until the merger is complete. I personally don't agree with this part of the deal--I think if they're senior enough on the overall list to be a captain, than they should be--but I like the fact that there's no fences, carve-outs, etc. On Jan 1 2015, it's whatever your seniority can hold.

It's pretty clear that you're going to be pissed regardless, and no amount of explanation is going to get you or Frog off your self-serving assertion that SWAPA personally screwed you out of spite.

Bubba

 

[pilotyip]

The next generation will cut the guys throat next to him if it will gain him one seniority number. I promise you, and the guys in the union will use you dues like their own personal steak and wine account while you are working Christmas Eve on a min guarantee month and they are getting 90+ for "union work at home". Take off the rose colored glasses and look at what you are dealing with.

Animal Farm anyone? If you like to fly this is still an OK job that puts you in the upper 10% of all wage earners in the US

 

[SWA Bubba]

BS.

If management truly thought that their proposal was fair, it wouldn't have included threats and ultimatums. By playing in the gutter, they admitted that their proposal was not fair or equitable. I wonder why that was? Clearly, SWAPA had a hand in this. A 3 year old could understand that. SWAPA can lick my balls.

I'll raise your BS with a double BS.

Your statement doesn't even make any sense. Of course they thought it was "fair." The pressure to put the second agreement to a vote was only when they saw that AirTran MEC wanted nothing other than to force arbitration--something management stated from the outset that it wanted to avoid.

Your attributing SWAPA's influence on SWA management's actions--actions based on management wishes clearly stated before the damn negotiations even started--is the height of ignorance. Apparently YOU are not as smart as your hypothetical 3-year old. Either that, or you're just looking for a reason to blame SWAPA. Either that, or you just really, really, really want some other pilot to lick your balls. I can't tell which.

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Where do you come up with this drivel? SWA paid 1.4 billion for Airtran. 750 mil in cash, the rest in SWA stock. Airtran had 500 mil in the bank so net outlay was around 250 mil. GK told you why-gates, routes,planes, LGA and DCA slots, and all the ATL gates. Far cheaper to acquire than "grow organically" and he says SWA will reap 400 million in synergies this year.
You're a stockholder, go to the shareholders meeting a table a proposal to replace him for his incompetence.

My point was not that it wasn't a good business decision, but rather that it wasn't a good pilot decision. I recognize the difference. Clearly you must as well, as much bitching about it that everyone (including you) does. You're just trying to be contrary to anything someone from Southwest says.

And as far as what the company paid for yours, you're comparing apples to oranges. Issuing stock costs money. Acquiring a company with money in the bank, but lots of liabilities does NOT count as "netting that amount of money." It cost substantially more than "$250 million" to acquire AirTran.

Southwest pilots are not questioning GK's business decision in this case, but rather than we'd rather he spent all that money (and the subsequently-acquired obligations) to grow organically. That way there wouldn't have been all the pain for the employee groups, including yours. Clear now, or do you want to nitpick something else?

Bubba

 

[SWA Bubba]

Here ya go, I fixed it for you...

If you REALLY believe the drivel you added to mokitty's post ("combined effort to further screw over AirTran pilots"), then there's probably no hope for you. You may as well as start applying for Walmart jobs now. You're clearly too unstable to be an airline pilot.

Bubba

 

[mokitty]

Here ya go, I fixed it for you...

Clyde, think what you want. Trust me, many of my SWA brothers and sisters feel we were screwed with this abomination of a merger just as much as you AT folks.

Lets see, I'm further from upgrade, lost domicile bidding power (since all transitions are FOs until 2015) lost vacation bidding power, and received no pay raise or payout to lessen the sting. If we were conspiring with the GO to screw you I would hope we would have done a better job then scewing the bottom half(or more) of the SWA list.

ATrannies do not have exclusivity on the suck factor, but you got a long list of positives to make the sting less. I just hope neither side whines too much once we're all together because that is not productive and we all got stuff we can complain about.