Let's Start an Airline-Hypothetically

[TonyC]

DISINGENUOUS

First post on this thread, fourth paragraph:

The investors are adament about keeping their workforce non-union ...

Tony C,

I am not disingenous in any way. I have no dog in this race,

OK, then whose dog is antiunion? The "investors"?!?!?

As for putting the cart before the horse ...

Who said anything about "cart before the horse"? Did I miss that, or are you feeling guilty about something?

As for the other thread I didn't delete it, I just left because my inability to express my core ideas reaped non productive replies.

I didn't say you deleted it, I said you abandoned it. And you did. Because your anti-union, anti-reserve pilot ideas were not well-received. So you started this thread with the premise that your hypothetical airline will be staffed by non-union associates. But - - you "have no dog in the race." THAT, my friend, is what we call DISINGENUOUS.

If you want to be anti-union, fine. There's no law against such an opinion. But if you want to proclaim the idea, be prepared to answer the counterclaims. And don't pretend to hide behind the curtain of academia in an attempt to just learn. Admit your bias, and face the music.

 

[TonyC]

I can read !

I think bobbysamd was talking about the pups that may be interested in moving and living in a domicile where they can start their professional life in the industry.

If I am able to comprehend Bobby's post - - and I think I can, because he's quite literate and articulate - - he was talking about line pilots who would be pulled "off the line for periodic duty as flight instructors and TAC officers in [y]our flight academy" and would "have to move to [y]our school's domicile." Their "interest" was not a factor.

When they HAVE to be instructors, and they HAVE to move to the domicile to do it, they AIN'T all gonna be happy.

 

[Publishers]

real world

Bobby and Astra

What I was trying to do was throw some real world cold water into the mixture.

Let me assure you that if the incestor wants his son or his wife to be in their, unless they are dangerous or totally incompetant, they are in.

We could design the prefect world, or airline, but, the fact is that people are involved and they keep screwing it up, pretty much since Adam and Eve.

I have been the CEO of an airline and several charter companies, and, there is no way the mentoring system will work, and, no way if you ever have a flight academy that you are going to pull instructors from the line to teach.

I liked you idea of a hypothetical airline, just do it as one really would do it. Face the same factors that happen in real life. I did not make these things that I threw at you up, they actually happended and I saw them.

When I left another type business and got into aviation, I found that the number of managment decisions that I made versus ones forced on me changed dramatically. In aviation, many decisions are made by others and you have to live with them.

I would like brand new A 320's but what I can get are very used DC9 30's.

In effect, the FAA, the London insurers, the DOT, auditors, and local airport authorities make as many critical decisions as I do.

I would like to go into National but what I can get is Dulles.

I would like to train my pilots at Boeing Flight Safety, but what i can get is calssrooms after 10pm at AeroService and two hours of sim between 1am and 3am.

I would like to be able to take every credit card on earth but I cannot get a master account for phone sales unless I give up 1.645% of the sale to this shyster of a banker.

I would like to sign up with a major reseration system, the trouble is that my flight as a preference will be way down the list.

What I can get is my own system, of course, will not be able to interline.

You get the picture---- these things are created through compromise and to do your airline without taking that into account is like not doing it.

That is what business is, making the best out of the cards dealt. Any idiot can do it with unlimited amounts of money and time.

 

[Astra Guy]

Publishers,

Your points are well taken. I know there are a number of pitfalls associated with any endeavor, let alone something of this scope. I understand the realities of politics, training times, credit card and other charges.

I think that since you have gone through some of these experiences and you have offered a spreadsheet that you could be invaluable to help us make this as close to real world as possible. I am sure that I am not alone in saying that your input is valuable to us.

If you think this whole process is ludicrous then I am sorry. I thought that everyone could learn from each other in the many different areas of expertise that are prevalent here on this board.

 

[Markm1811]

Operating a New Airline..

I have followed this thread in silence for way too long. A friend and I are going down the same path looking at a startup airline working on a restricted yet lucrative route plan. We have gone though the considerations of Flight hours, Type of plane ( and even been to the desert to look around). We spoke to the aircraft manufacturers and got loads of information regarding GP, Air cost per mile and even fuel hedging ( not a great idea in the start up flow).

When you are ready for route planning please let me know. I have some information on flight flows, freight flows and even routes as yet not contained that the business world consider value for travel.

Astra - You are quite correct the 3 main keys we discovered so far is a, good solid investement with a rate of return understood to be 8 - 12% ROANA b, The key is HR and destroying the old boy network and c, dedicated pilots who understand that to get in on the initial is tough but the rewards for success makes the time bearable.

HR- I am trying to break into the dispatch world still.. Please can I send my resume when the time is right. Decent support and ops staff are a major factor for day to day ops..

Mark M

 

[Publishers]

Astra

I do not think it is ludicrous, there are all kinds of simulations around for everything from running an airport to building a city, air traffic control, etc.

One thing that is obvious is that there tends to be a concentration on righting every wrong from a human resources point of vew.

First of all, there is a good old boy network almost from day one at every company. That good old boy network can be many things. You could call the Silver Bullets at Alaska good old boy networking. The Delta recommend letter.

It probably will not surprise you that I do not find anything wrong with it. The fact is that if I was made president of Delta tomorrow morning, there are a few folks I would call and invite over and in. One of the keys to running something is to find like minded individuals. I do not want to micro-manage the company, but I do want people that think like I do so inb given situations they will make like decisions. You would call that a good old boy group and yes it is.

Nex, if the investor has some friends he wants me to look at, we are going to look. It is his money. If they are not dangerous or brain dead, they are in.

The fact is that a good deal of our potential success is going to take place before we hire the first employee. If you play golf, you know a good many bets are won on the first tee not when the game is played.

You guys think you know how to handle people-- let me give you a question to answer.

You know that you are going to shutter a division and let all the people go in two months from now. Do you tell anyone?

You have someone you want to fire, you bring in his replacement for training and have him ready under the persons nose or do you terminate first and get the replacement.

As you consultant to the Board, just get me your start up budget and tell me when we will get the certificate.

 

[Astra Guy]

Publishers,

I understand what you are saying and actually don't disagree with much of what you have said.

I don't believe we can right every wrong from an HR view. I do believe we can correct some of the obvious things that lead to a company's demise if their core business is offering a service. I do think that the winners in the airline business will be the ones that add value to their customers. One snippet of value that can be improved upon in most day to day 121 operations is treating customers like they matter. Another bit of value is not cramming as many passengers into an airplane that was designed for 2X2 seating 20 years ago into a 3X2 coach seating arrangement, not to mention the knee busting experience of sitting behind someone. I do believe that a business model can be created by those with a different corporate culture than is the norm, can be successful. Lord, help us if this is not true.

Hiring like minded people to work and manage only makes good sense. Imagine taking over a company where everyone's response is that "Well we don't do things that way around here." Maybe that is why they are failing in the first place and the reason you were called in to take over.

As for your questions. Neither is easy to answer, which is probably why you asked. My personal method of handling number one would be to let people know that due to some business difficulties that a review would be taking place to see which divisions are not effective. That would atleast give some a heads up that something is coming. In most businesses that I have had contact with there are always changes along the life of the business. Only the blind would allow a model to remain that doesn't work anymore. Question #2. One factor affecting this decision is how critical is this person to your operation? Another would be is there anyone else in the organization that could fill the gap temporarily until a full time replacement is found. I think hiring and training his replacement under his nose would be the least attractive method of the choices.

As soon as we settle on the marketable route structure and airplane we will let you know.

Thanks for your input.

 

[bobbysamd]

Big Brotherism

[N]ot every line pilot is qualified (other than in the technical sense of holding an ATP) to instruct. You know that there are a number of personality traits, whether inherent or developed, that are required to be an effective instructor. One of the most important traits is a desire to teach . . . . Volunteers only.

No. Part of the idea is to give back to the company. I agree; not everyone wants to be an instructor, which is why we will make it attractive. Instructors at our academy will be revered individuals, just as they are in Europe. They will not be regarded as the bottommost step in the aviation food chain, as so many flight instructors are in this country.

We would use line pilots who are CFIs to instruct through Commercial-Multi-Instrument. Line pilots without CFIs or with lapsed CFIs who are interested can come to me, and I will either get them their CFI or send them for reinstatement practicals on the company's nickel. I will work with our school's POI to ensure that CFI expiration is never a problem.

[O]ffering to help find schools for kids and employment for spouses smacks of "big brother"ism.

The intent of offering assistance is to reduce the trauma of moving. While I know that a great number of people here have moved more than I, it doesn't make it any less difficult or traumatic. It would have been nice if I, as a newcomer to a new city, would have had someone who could have turned me on to decent housing and had provided other relocation assistance. Not to mention that a couple of times in my life I had relocated just before holiday periods and spent the holidays alone. It would have been nice if someone had cared.

The last element of the package - - "assistance i[n] finding ... employment for spouses.... " is offensive to many. It assumes that the spouse is a subserviant portable device that can be plugged into the local economy in some sort of employment capacity at the whims of the airline and the pilot.

Read my comments above. The company is there only to offer assistance. A formalized way of the old "I have a friend who has a friend who knows someone who could use your talents" kind of thing.

You're reading far too much into what I propose. No one intends to set up a company town and force employees to trade at the company store, nor will anyone owe his/her soul to the company store.

Too many companies want you to relocate. They may pay for your move, but they really don't care beyond that. We will be different. We do and will care.

SO, what do you think about volunteer instructors, who can commute if they so desire?

I feel that training our pilots to our procedures and our culture is a very important part of our company. Commuting is fine as long as instructors are available to their students and don't miss any shifts.

 

[bobbysamd]

A flight academy of our own . . . .

I think bobbysamd was talking about the pups that may be interested in moving and living in a domicile where they can start their professional life in the industry.

That's essentially where I'm coming from, and it would be a long-term project. Instructing interest would be very much a part of the interview process. I feel that if you bring in the right type of people they would love to be mentors, especially to highly-motivated students.

Even the most dedicated and conscientious flight instructor hates going to work when his students arrive unprepared for flights, do not apply themselves, and must be spoon-fed. It is a pleasure to come to work when you have students who are motivated and prepared.

 

[enigma]

After getting caught up from the weekend, I just have to say that some of you are focusing on the wrong target. If you truly desire to build yourself an airline, you need to stop focusing on 5% of your people and start talking about the 95% that will do everything from throw bags to arrange non-rev travel. Those people are the ones who will make or brake you. I firmly believe that I could use a random number generator to pick pilots from a pool of qualified applicants and achieve success. Not so for customer service people like FA's, gate agents, res agents, etc. For those jobs you need more than just the willingness to work for an airline. Customer service, and your middle managers will have more to do with your success or failure than will your pilots.

I say this because it is self evident that pilots are highly reliable to get the job done. We may piss and moan, but when it comes down to brass tacks, we do our job. Airlines fail because managers fail to do their job, not the pilots. Expansion planning, marketing, fuel planning, equipment choices, etc. are hugely more important to an airlines success than how the pilots are trained.

There is an unseen reality here for both sides. Pilots are not as vital to success as we would like to believe, and pilots are not as responsible for failure as management would like to believe.

One more thought. Pilot pay. Why come SWA can pay a fluf driver $200K and make money, yet AAA loses money with highly paid pilots. If pilot pay was the problem, SWA would be in the same boat as is AAA. Seems to this country boy that management is responsible, not pilots. Try spending your time looking for superb CS and middle managers.

enigma