Let's move the PFT discussion here

[goofyleftwich]

So say I have 5000TT 4000 Jet 2500 Jet Pic and several type ratings that I aquired at company A. I decide to leave company A for whatever reason. I go out and pay for a Challenger type rating and 135 school, just because I want to. So now I have a fresh 8410 and a new type rating. I apply to company B, who is looking for a current and qualified typed Challenger pilot, and get the job.

Is this PFT?

How about the contract pilots out there that pay for their own recurents and possibly additional types so they can possibly fly for additional clients.

Is this PFT?

Is Southwest PFT?

I am trying to find the line in the sand!

 

[goofyleftwich]

is/was execjet PFT?

Comair Academy?

is a training contract the same as PFT?

 

[goofyleftwich]

interns...are they PFT?

 

[goofyleftwich]

when a doctor does his residency, working 100 hour weeks and getting paid next to nothing........is this PFT

 

[leardrivr]

So say I have 5000TT 4000 Jet 2500 Jet Pic and several type ratings that I aquired at company A. I decide to leave company A for whatever reason. I go out and pay for a Challenger type rating and 135 school, just because I want to. So now I have a fresh 8410 and a new type rating. I apply to company B, who is looking for a current and qualified typed Challenger pilot, and get the job.

Is this PFT?

How about the contract pilots out there that pay for their own recurents and possibly additional types so they can possibly fly for additional clients.

Is this PFT?

Is Southwest PFT?

I am trying to find the line in the sand!

Yes!!!!!!!

 

[leardrivr]

is/was execjet PFT?

Comair Academy?

is a training contract the same as PFT?

Yes again!!!!!!

 

[leardrivr]

interns...are they PFT?

????????? not sure how this relates to aviation.

 

[leardrivr]

when a doctor does his residency, working 100 hour weeks and getting paid next to nothing........is this PFT

see previous post.

 

[goofyleftwich]

you are right it has nothing to do with aviation. but essentially they are either working for free or being grossly taken advantage of to get some "stick time"

wannabe doctors, lawyers do it all the time, all day long

i am not saying that pft or interning or residency or working for free is good or bad

i am just looking outside of aviation...how others pft

 

[LXJ31]

By proposing this you are implying that the cockpit of a commercial jet with passengers on board is a training environment. Medical interns and law clerks do not "pay" for the privilege. They are paid for their services though they are not paid as much as doctors or lawyers because they are not, in fact, qualified doctors or lawyers. (Though they might be become one.) One of the reasons they are not paid very much is that their services are not required. The same cannot be said for the right seat of passenger carrrying jet.

Try again.

 

[goofyleftwich]

no i think the right seater and some of the left seaters are just warm bodies....i think we all should pft, drink coffee and eat sushi

 

[JD2003]

where is bobbysamd's commentary when you need it?

 

[leardrivr]

By proposing this you are implying that the cockpit of a commercial jet with passengers on board is a training environment. Medical interns and law clerks do not "pay" for the privilege. They are paid for their services though they are not paid as much as doctors or lawyers because they are not, in fact, qualified doctors or lawyers. (Though they might be become one.) One of the reasons they are not paid very much is that their services are not required. The same cannot be said for the right seat of passenger carrrying jet.

Try again.

Amen Brother!

 

[Best on a Camel]

Yawn.

How many years are we going to have this discussion?

 

[goofyleftwich]

as long as it takes i guess........i just thought it was time to put it to rest on the Montrose accident

so why dont we move it here?

 

[LXJ31]

Whats wrong with talking about it? If its not your cup of tea, for whatever reason, check out the YGTBSM thread.

 

[bobbysamd]

Analyzing what is or what is not P-F-T

So say I have 5000TT 4000 Jet 2500 Jet Pic and several type ratings that I aquired at company A. I decide to leave company A for whatever reason. I go out and pay for a Challenger type rating and 135 school, just because I want to. So now I have a fresh 8410 and a new type rating. I apply to company B, who is looking for a current and qualified typed Challenger pilot, and get the job.

Is this PFT?

(emphasis added)

P-F-T is an employment issue only. The main objection to P-F-T is it is tantamount to buying a job.

The test of whether something is or is not P-F-T is whether you are required as a condition of employment to pay for your training. Usually, P-F-T is initial training the company is required to provide pursuant to the FARs, the cost of which is ordinarily a cost of doing business.

He was not offered a job and was told as a condition of employment that he had to pay for the type and 135 letter at his expense. He went out and bought the type and 135 letter for the hell of it. Therefore, applying the test to these facts, this is not P-F-T.

How about the contract pilots out there that pay for their own recurents and possibly additional types so they can possibly fly for additional clients.

Is this PFT?

(emphasis added)

I would say yes. As well as being criminal in the literal sense. Finally, the age-old P-F-T question:

Is Southwest PFT?

No. See my answer to your first question.

Southwest requires applicants to possess the B737 type to be considered for employment; always has and probably always will. Most applicants have to buy the type, but bear in mind that quite a few pilots already have it, paid for by a previous employer, the military, etc. Southwest does not make new-hire pilots pay for their initial training. Therefore, because Southwest does not make new-hires pay for their initial training, it is not P-F-T.

 

[goofyleftwich]

SW may not require you to pay for your initial, but they make you pay for your type if you don't already have one.

To me that means PFT

 

[bobbysamd]

Southwest B737 type

SW may not require you to pay for your initial, but they make you pay for your type if you don't already have one.

To me that means PFT

It can mean anything you want it to mean, but it bears no relation to the facts. The facts are:

(1) Southwest is not making you pay for anything; the B737 type is a requirement for employment, with no differentiation being made if you obtained your own type or someone else paid for it;

(2) Southwest can establish any requirement it wants for employment, whether you like that requirement or not;

(3) you don't have to apply to Southwest if you object to its employment policies; and,

(4) employment at Southwest is not conditioned on you paying Southwest for your initial training, and is, therefore, not P-F-T.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair and MAPD

is . . . Comair Academy [P-F-T]?

Once again, no.

Comair Academy (DCA) is, at bottom, a 141 flight school. It only promises to train you for your initial certificates and ratings, which are not company-specific and are recognized credentials everywhere. DCA's lure, of course, is "the interview" with Comair Airlines, etc., but it does not hire new students for the airline upon enrollment. Because there is no offer of employment conditioned upon paying for training, it is not P-F-T. And, from what is known about the place, getting the CFI job and then getting "the interview" are both SOBs.

Applying the same reasoning, MAPD's ab initio 141 school is not P-F-T. Just as with Comair, the only promise MAPD makes is it will train you for your initial ratings. It, too, lures people with "the interview," but by no means is a job offer tendered to new students upon enrollment. Moreover, new-hires do not have to pay for their initial training at Mesa Airlines. Therefore, MAPD is not P-F-T.

 

[bssthound]

So say I have 5000TT 4000 Jet 2500 Jet Pic and several type ratings that I aquired at company A. I decide to leave company A for whatever reason. I go out and pay for a Challenger type rating and 135 school, just because I want to. So now I have a fresh 8410 and a new type rating. I apply to company B, who is looking for a current and qualified typed Challenger pilot, and get the job.

Is this PFT?



Is paying tuition to a university, obtaining a degree, then getting a job in that degree's field PFT? No. If you're not paying Company B for the job then you are not paying for training.