Let Me Ask You...

[infoman]

Amazing,

That is my first reaction to the Goverment letting a company use the excuse of a pension to get out of bankruptcy.

As for the captain. All I can think is something my Dad said to me after 30 years at Eastern.

He said "son if it don't cost anything to sign up for the program. Sign. If it cost you, and you have no control. Look at me."

I remeber this every time I go to work. I do not trust corporate America. They only see the bottom line. Never the people.

My thoughts to the US Air people and families.

Best Wishes.

 

[PCL_128]

Re: RJ F/O You don't get it

Hard work, skill, and desire have nothing to do with someones ability to earn a 175K/yr retirement, It is due to luck that one ends up in that position.

It has everything to do with hard work and skill. The pilots at USAir and UAL worked hard to get to their positions at their respective airlines. Their jobs didn't just fall into their laps. I'm really getting tired of guys that don't work at Majors saying that major airline pilots only got their jobs through luck.

When it is based upon a company's assets and the company goes south, it no longer exsists, is it managements fault?

Yes. Management made a committment to fund these retirement plans. It is their bad management that lead to this situation. It is most certainly their fault.

is it the pilots fault because they elected to go to work for a company with bad management?

No. Many of these guys have been working at AAA for decades. The managements have changed time and time again. Blaming the pilots for working some place with bad management is ridiculous.

 

[CatYaaak]

That's really none of your business. If he decided to spend his money or save it, it shouldn't be any of your concern. He worked his whole career knowing that he was going to have a pension plan that offered him six figures. Now it just disappears and all you care about is how he spent his money?

He made it everyone's business, because when someone whines in a PUBLIC FORUM (like this Captain did) HE'S opening the door for the public to scrutinize his claims. He must've thought it was "our concern". In such a case, people certainly have the right to make value judgements to his condition, and offer their opinions even when it disagrees with your own. Your admonishment that "it's none of your business" is mis-applied.

Your response is based upon a false premise of your own imagination; "...all you care about is how he spent his money". On the contrary, I think everyone here has experessed how much it sucks for his pension plan to disappear. What you fail to grasp is that being the victim of bad luck/bad management/bad industry economics does NOT automatically make one a saint, nor does it automatically negate the fact that he might also be a complete moron when it comes to personal finances and setting priorities. This particular Captain is seeking to extend the legitimate sympathy factor by invoking a vague "working stiff" sob story of not being able to afford a car or education for his kids. I'm certainly not going to apologize for waving the BS flag on that claim.

Once again, a guy making over a quarter million $$ a year but can't save enough for his kids college obviously has his priorities screwed up...and yes, since HE brought it up it's perfectly acceptable to make that value judgement (one based on being a parent, the fact he's a pilot is irrelevant). Going on to complain about not being able to get a new car, quite frankly, makes him sound like a whiny baby.

 

[metrodriver]

The whole airline industry is managed badly, except at SWA and jet blue.All carriers are focussing on cutting cost, which only can go so far, none is trying to increase revenue. Did you know it's cheaper to fly on Delta, continental, united, Usair, AA on some segments than SWA? cheaper than the king of low fares? No wonder they are losing money. $200.- to London and back? What nonsense is this? I can't even paddle a boat across for this. Solution: raise the price of all these cheap tickets by $100.-. That's $15.000 on a 150 seat coach class plane. If you have 1000 departures per week with this type of plane per week, that's $15 million A WEEK! Are the airlines going to do it? Oh no, if only one doesn't, none of them will (see the NWA $10.- fuel surcharge from a week ago, 3 airlines followed, one didn't ,next day no surcharge anymore). Would people stop flying? No, maybe the first few weeks, but when they find out a cheaper ticket wil not be available, they will come back. In any industry you raise the rates if your income is lower than your costs, except in aviation, let's not pay the employees and reduce the rates (and ask the government for a bailout, maybe they should put some kind of pricing stipulation with these grants.

 

[Timebuilder]

However, what in the h*** has this guy been doing with his money all these years. Has he no savings, investments, IRAs, etc.? My annual salary is a pitance compared to this guy, yet I manage to afford a new car, house payments, raising a family, and even manage to put money towards my retirement. I'd certainly like to think that making six figures I'd have a grand nest egg put away. Maybe thats just me?

We don't know, do we? Maybe he too a 50% bath in the post-tech bubble bursting. I'm down to 40% of my former value.

Regadless of esoteric discussions of skill, luck etc, I think that a pension should be sacrosanct. It's a part of the total compensation package that came out of contract negotiations. I am sickened by the class envy that is so prevalent these days. Who among us, finding ourselves in the position of senior captain at a major would give back their pay, saying "this is too much"? What a load of manure.

A deal is a deal. Maybe the only way to prevent this in future is to make the individual account the ONLY legal pension account.

 

[acarpe3448]

I appreciate all the different views about the meaning of this article. However, I think there may be another explanation for what this US Air Captain was saying.

1. True, USA Today did list his salary at $275,000 a year, and that his pension was supposed to be like $170K or something like that. The article also noted that if the pension were to be closed or failed that he could be looking at only $28,000 a year. Now at that level, I believe many of us would be upset if we still had three kids to put through college.

2. Over the 32 years that this guy put in at US Air, he had planned to have "X" amount of income. Therefore, he may not have invested as much into his own 401K as he should of. Not really smart as an investor, but consider that the majority of people in this country do not take full advantage of this saving plan.

3. This Captain may have contributed the full amount to his 401K, but over the past several years his investments took a beating, like mine. I don't know how USAIR's 401K works, but what if the company match is in company stock. Well, he may have had several hundred thousand dollars go down the tubes in addition to his other stocks or mutual funds.

4. It's unfortunate but I think a huge percentage of Americans maintain living standards based on what they "WILL" be making instead of where we are today.

5. When this Captain was listing the changes that would have to be made, I think it was just him listing some things that anyone could do to reduce their expenses in retirement. I personally do not think that he was saying that due to the fact that he is only going to get $90,000 that he can't get that new car he was planning on getting.

6. After reading all that he said, it is my opinion that his biggest concern is being able to fund his children's education.


These were just a few a few opposing opinions that I had not seen anyone list. Don't get me wrong, I am not a USAIR Pilot and loosing the pensions will not directly effect me. (YET) A matter of fact, this guy may be the money hungry, self centered jerk that many are making him out to be. I am just saying that I really feel for these men and women, and I am surprised to hear so many pilots gripe about major airline pilot's pensions. With the exception of a few, it was once the goal of all pilots to reach the major airlines and the lifestyle and security that they offered. Today, I feel that we were all forced into a pay and benefits race to the bottom.

And just to avoid any fights, I am very pro-equal contracts between the majors and their connections. I believe that all of the Small Jet operators deserve parity in wages and benefits.

 

[pilotyip]

For RJ F/O again

You did not answer the one about successful pilot managed airlines, if it always bad management how come the smart pilots don't get together and start a smart airline that has good management.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Posted by PCL:
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He worked his whole career knowing that he was going to have a pension plan that offered him six figures.
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Correction, sir: He spent his whole career THINKING he was going to get a six figure pension.



Also:
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It has everything to do with hard work and skill. The pilots at USAir and UAL worked hard to get to their positions at their respective airlines. Their jobs didn't just fall into their laps. I'm really getting tired of guys that don't work at Majors saying that major airline pilots only got their jobs through luck.
---------------------------------------------------

This is false and you know it. Many worked hard and deserved it.
But remember, many good ones were turned down for no good reason, any more than a few screwups are hired. Also, how about the low-time intern hires at UAL. How hard did they work?



Again:
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This is the problem with this profession nowdays. Too many pilots are willing to tell the guys at the majors how much they should be able to make. It is really none of your business whether they get a 50k pension or a 150k pension.
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I think, PCL, that a bigger problem than me saying what I think is people who actually go out and DO something that lowers the bar. PFT comes to mind.

Besides, I have every right to say what think a mainline job is worth. I'm sorry that only the anointed inner circle is able to truly understand. Do you feel that if you talk like a mainline pilot long enough that you get to be an honorary one?

 

[Timebuilder]

Besides, I have every right to say what think a mainline job is worth. I'm sorry that only the anointed inner circle is able to truly understand. Do you feel that if you talk like a mainline pilot long enough that you get to be an honorary one?

If either you or I were mainline pilots, and were facing a scr*wing like this, we'd be wondering "where is the rule of law, and the strength of the collective bargaining process?"

And no, it isn't for anyone except the principle parties to decide the worth of ANY pilot. That's between the representative (in my case, I represent myself) and the one who agrees to make payroll, benfit, and yes, PENSION payments.

 

[CatYaaak]

Regadless of esoteric discussions of skill, luck etc, I think that a pension should be sacrosanct. It's a part of the total compensation package that came out of contract negotiations. I am sickened by the class envy that is so prevalent these days. Who among us, finding ourselves in the position of senior captain at a major would give back their pay, saying "this is too much"? What a load of manure.
.

The only load of manure here is you misrepresenting through implication what others have said....i.e... that they stated they would give back their pay, saying "this is too much". I've never heard anyone say that. If you're sick of "class envy" then it's a self-inflicted illness built on your own false-premise.

As much as you want pensions to be sacrosanct and contracts to be written in stone until the sun supernovas, I'm sorry to say it won't happen as long as there is such a thing as changing economic conditions, which of course there always will be. If the judge's decision runs contrary to the law, then it will be probably be overturned. Chapter 11 allows breathing room so a company can re-organize, and at that point nothing is sacrosanct because anything is better than liquidation under Chapter 7; everyone loses their jobs too.

I hate if for them, but US Air has been a basket case for over a decade in terms of costs, mis-management, and furloughs even when times were good in the industry. Like it or not, to some degree salaries, wages and pensions work into that equation that got them to this point. I had more than a few friends furloughed for well over 5-7 years at US Air, while their "brothers" like this Captain were making making higher wages flying the same equipment than their counterparts at companies that weren't struggling. Even this guy must have noticed that not everything was hunky-dory at his company, no matter what his paycheck said.

A lot of people make an airline run, not just pilots, and plenty have lost their jobs now, and won't be re-hired. Bravo for that Captain for making such good wages during his 32-year run, but he's at least a decade late in starting to wonder how basic things like college tuitions will be paid.

 

[46Driver]

If I remember my astronomy class correctly, the Sun will not Supernova because it does not have enough mass.

 

[PCL_128]

Re: For RJ F/O again

You did not answer the one about successful pilot managed airlines, if it always bad management how come the smart pilots don't get together and start a smart airline that has good management.

I never said that pilots would do a better job at managing an airline (although I'm sure some pilots would do a great job). The problem with this industry is that the same bad managers keep getting recycled. Example: I believe that the man hired to run Song for Delta was a former top manager at the failed Midway Airlines. There are countless examples like this. The managers run their airlines into the ground and just go and get a job at another airline so they can destroy that one too. It's a never ending cycle. We need to get some new blood in management in this business.

 

[CitationLover]

airlines management = football?

isn't that how the nfl works? 49ers hire some idiot who never won at seattle (and whose only winning was when a program was handed to him - miami).

future pension amounts are ESTIMATES based on someones PROJECTED earnings. i understand pilots think management are boners and management thinks pilots are schmucks, but i believe the blame lies equally with mgmt and alpa. afterall, they negotiated this sorry situation.

chapter 11 should also have a clause written in that calls for management to get the shaft also, afterall i had to read all those stupid articles wolf wrote for the usair mag, what a moron.

the real crime is those suckers who bought usair stock for $50/share the day after the united merger was announced (it was probably martha stewart and mgmt unloading all their stock).

 

[Timebuilder]

The only load of manure here is you misrepresenting through implication what others have said....i.e... that they stated they would give back their pay, saying "this is too much". I've never heard anyone say that. If you're sick of "class envy" then it's a self-inflicted illness built on your own false-premise.

No, you are missing my point. I am not saying that anyone has said what I am saying. I AM saying that given my hypothetical, those who are critical of the pay of major airline pilots would quickly lose any form of complaint, as long as THEY are the ones who are on the receiving end of the paycheck. In other words, if the shoe was on the other foot, the complainers would be happily wearing it.

I hope that clears it up for you. Class envy is apparently your problem, not mine. I'm happy for anyone who can negotiate a high wage. You, I think, are envious.

The reason that a pension has traditionally been seen as sacrosanct is that it is an agreement that is undertaken during the working life to last one through the retirtement life. To change the nature of the deal is preposterous, particularly after the retirement has begun. It is, in a word, dishonorable. Changing economic conditions? In my view, the shareholders have such a responsibility to the pension plan that if the company can't afford to keep its deal with its most tenured employees, then they need to do what it takes to make the pension solvent. No excuses. Without those pensioners, NO ONE in the present ranks would have a job at all. Similarly, those who are still working have an expectation that the work they have already done, not the work they have yet to do, obligates the company to take extraordinary means to make good. If a judge says otherwise all of the parties have to live with that decision, but it should lead to legislation to prevent this kind of failure to perform according to the employment contract in the future.

Bravo for that Captain for making such good wages during his 32-year run, but he's at least a decade late in starting to wonder how basic things like college tuitions will be paid.

He HAD planned, based on an agreement that was a prt of his negotiated compensation package. Now, becuase of other's mistakes, beyond his control, he is being asked to give back what is already supposed to be his.

 

[100LL... Again!]

To clarify:

The company is dishonorable for not living up to its end of the agreement. The pilot is entitled to the full amount, as negotiated.

My point:

You are insane not to consider that this type of situation might occur, and plan accordingly. If I made a $150K+ salary, I would have an awful lot in savings, as I have no trust of these type of pension plans for the reasons we are seeing.

Life is unfair, and we cannot change it.