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2000flyer

EASY FLYER
Joined
Nov 26, 2001
Posts
1,586
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======================

US Airways targets pilots' pension plan
By Barbara De Lollis, USA TODAY

ALEXANDRIA, Va. — With 10 months left in a 32-year flying career, US Airways Capt. Joe Graham suddenly faces a retirement shock.

Instead of the $175,000-a-year pension he'd counted on, Graham now thinks it could be $90,000, if he's lucky. Or even much less.

Graham is one of 5,700 US Airways pilots whose retirements may be crushed in the vise of their employer's bigger money troubles. US Airways is asking a federal bankruptcy judge to terminate the pilots' pension plan, freeing the company from about $1.7 billion in pension obligations and possibly clearing the way for its emergence from reorganization in late March. A three-day court hearing on the US Airways' motion is expected to conclude today in bankruptcy court here.

If the plan is terminated, pilots would receive up to $28,400 a year from the Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp., which insures business pension plans. US Airways also has offered to contribute $850 million to a new scaled-down plan that would pay additional benefits but less than the current plan offers.

While terminating the plan could save thousands of jobs at US Airways, it would be a staggering blow for veteran pilots like Graham. He has three children to put through college, and when he turns 60 in December, he'll hit the mandatory retirement age for airline pilots. The prospect of losing most of his pension comes on top of pay cuts that he says have cut his salary 30% from $275,000 a year. He is one of US Airways' most senior pilots.

"You can rationalize these pay cuts. You can cut your lifestyle back, you can not get a new car, you can cut back on your travel," he says. "But, by God, they're not going to turn me loose at 60 unable to fly at $28,000 a year with three kids."

Today in bankruptcy court, US Airways will argue that its survival rests on terminating the pension plan. If it doesn't emerge from Chapter 11 next month, it could lose more than $1 billion in financing and a critical deal for processing its credit card sales, which accounts for half its revenue.

"If we don't resolve this issue, there will not be a company," says Jack Butler, US Airways' bankruptcy lawyer.

In a sign of how emotionally charged the issue is, more than 100 pilots — most in uniform — have packed the bankruptcy courtroom and an overflow room to watch the hearing.

US Airways says it got to this point in part because the weak stock market and low interest rates devalued the current fund's investments and left it unable to meet obligations.

The situation is still tough. US Airways Chief Financial Officer Neal Cohen testified this week that the airline is losing $2 million a day, and a war could cost it millions more. To afford payments to the pension plan, Cohen said, the company would need to save $600 million elsewhere over the next three years, which he doesn't believe is possible.

The airline tried to find ways to get around the payments, such as stretching them over 30 years instead of seven. But it couldn't get authority from the PBGC or Congress to do so.

The Air Line Pilots Association is expected to mount its challenge today. The union contends that US Airways hasn't explored every alternative, such as trimming the $3 billion to $4 billion that the company expects to spend on regional jets over several years. ALPA also says US Airways' motion raises contract issues that should be settled under labor laws, not bankruptcy laws.

Meanwhile, the issue is stirring distrust among the pilots. Many believe the company is using the savings from their pension to offset contributions to other pension plans, including management's. US Airways denies that.

Pilots were stung by Cohen's testimony Monday that the airline paid $35 million in advance pension payments to former chairman Stephen Wolf, former CEO Rakesh Gangwal and former general counsel Lawrence Nagin before its Chapter 11 filing in August.

Charlie Couch, 58, has been flying for US Airways for 16 years. He says termination could cost half his pension payments. He thinks other aviation jobs will be hard to find because many pilots have been furloughed since the Sept. 11 attacks, 1,800 at US Airways. He and his wife are considering selling their dream house in Chester County, Pa.

"It still feels surreal," he says. "You do your flying. Everything looks normal. Then you realize it's a nightmare."
 
First of all, I think it's disgraceful for USAirways to trash ANYONE'S hard-earned pension. These men and women have given their talents and dedication during their careers to this company.

However, after reading this article this morning, I came away with the feeling that it's no wonder the general public thinks a pilot is overpaid. (Example: I took my truck in for some warranty work the other day and while it was being worked on I went to the new car lot to check out the latest and greatest. Of course, not 10 seconds went buy before I had a sales person at my side. After small talk, she asked who I worked for and what I did for the company. Her next comment was "Oh... a pilot. Well I know you can afford any car on the lot!")

The prospect of losing most of his pension comes on top of pay cuts that he says have cut his salary 30% from $275,000 a year. He is one of US Airways' most senior pilots.

Keep in mind that 30% of $275K is $82500, so he's now making $192,500.

Why on earth would the gentleman in the article make the following statement...

"You can rationalize these pay cuts. You can cut your lifestyle back, you can not get a new car, you can cut back on your travel," he says."

Ok, it's true that at an annual income of $28,000 (which is pitiful, no doubt) won't let you go out and buy a new car. However, what in the h*** has this guy been doing with his money all these years. Has he no savings, investments, IRAs, etc.? My annual salary is a pitance compared to this guy, yet I manage to afford a new car, house payments, raising a family, and even manage to put money towards my retirement. I'd certainly like to think that making six figures I'd have a grand nest egg put away. Maybe thats just me?

Sorry to vent and in no way trying to flame. I'm in agreement with the pilot's that their company should NOT be allowed to end their pensions. I'm just at a loss when you hear of senior pilot's talking about this and trying to figure why they have no other savings.

Regards (and respect)
2000Flyer
 
Patrick Ewing said it best during the NBA strike...


"We make a lot, but we spend a lot!"
 
The Air Line Pilots Association is expected to mount its challenge today. The union contends that US Airways hasn't explored every alternative, such as trimming the $3 billion to $4 billion that the company expects to spend on regional jets over several years. "


Looks like ALPA is now going to help screw the J4J guys that they helped get those jobs. Those same jobs they secured while screwing other ALPA pilots that worked for those carriers.

Does anyone else's head hurt ?
 
CitationLover said:
"We make a lot, but we spend a lot!"

CitationLover,

You may have hit the nail on the head!

Looks like ALPA is now going to help screw the J4J guys that they helped get those jobs. Those same jobs they secured while screwing other ALPA pilots that worked for those carriers.

darling pretty,

doesn't seem to make much sense, does it!

2000Flyer
 
we all work hard

We all work hard, and luck has more to do with being in a position to make a 175K or 90K pension than skill and desire. I would be elated at a 50K pension.
 
I'd certainly like to think that making six figures I'd have a grand nest egg put away. Maybe thats just me?

I make less than 100K but my wife also has a decent job.
Our lifestyle has not changed substantially since I was an F/O at 30K but the TAXES have increased exponentially. when I made less I had enough deductions to enable me to pay less tax now I'm hit with AMT. I have one child in college and am funding my 401K to the max because I got a late start. One plus for the 401K if the company goes bankrupt it's yours, they can't take it back to pay for golden parachutes!
 
Anyone who would join a company controlled retirement plan be it company stock (UAL, ENRON) or Pension plan (USAIRWAYS)other than a 401k with matching funds are just asking for it...
 
Wether one makes 275k a year or minimum wage, building and saving for the future and retirement rest solely on the individual regardless of how well a company's pesion plan may be. I have a sixteen year old son that my wife and I are not only saving for college but also investing in his retirement, why? Can you imagine what the economy will be like at his retirement age? Scary.


'We make a lot, but we spend a lot'...in todays AND tomorrows economy hopefully for these folks the word 'wisely' will be included.

Things have changed, they are not the same as they were 30 years ago whenever one could retire and live comfortably on any reputable company's pension plan and it ain't going to get any better!

As far as the 32 year veteren earning a six figure income annually? My hat's off to him, I wish everybody could earn that kind of money!
 
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Cliff said:
Anyone who would join a company controlled retirement plan be it company stock (UAL, ENRON) or Pension plan (USAIRWAYS)other than a 401k with matching funds are just asking for it...

I think up to just a few years ago, anyone with the opportunity to join a company with a solid pension/retirement plan would have joined in a heartbeat.

2000Flyer
 
MailMan said:


I guess you're asking for it too, since you're retired military. I read about that in the Air Force Times every week. I believe , once again, you're envious that your retirement stinks compared to what a major airline Captain pulls in.......enjoy the BX privileges though:rolleyes:

If you ever take a break from arbitrarily assigning the base emotion of "envy" to those that don't hold the same perspective as you, consider what they are saying.....

1) Everyone here agrees, I think, that it sucks that this guy and others at US Air might lose their pensions, or at least have them trimmed down. Yes, putting in all those years with the company should be rewarded. This empathy goes out to any employee at any company in any industry. At this conceptual level, I would have felt just as bad for the buggy whip makers who spent their lives producing buggy whips only to have their companies fail and their retirements wiped out by the automobile industry.

however.....

2) To use this particular pilot as an example, and by using his quotes ("not get a new car...sending the kids to college, etc") makes one believe that this guy was living in a dream world during his 34-years at US Air. 34 years with one company means his career is as close to a "gravy train" as it gets in this madness we call "a career in aviation". He's obviously clueless or running his mouth without thinking; making over a quarter million a year and can't buy a new car? Um, unless he's buying a new Aston Martin or Ferrari F-40 every three years, that's a crock. Can't send his kids to college?.......what, did he contribute 1/250th of his salary yearly to their college fund? Those statements are beyond insulting to those that work years to simply make ends meet...they are in fact simply ridiculous.

He obviously sat comfortably at the top of the seniority list for so long, immune from all but the most dire economic disaster, that he chose to forget that his company had hundreds of pilots on furlough for 7 years during the last decade. Did he think that happened because US Air was so stable and doing so well?

In 34 years, did he fail to notice Braniff, Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, hitting the skids and observe what happened to those pilots? US Air has been the weakest major carrier for so long, what I think you confuse for "envy" is our utter amazement that this PARTICULAR pilot wouldn't be socking large amounts of that top end Captain's pay away. Although you may not think so, questioning this guy's foresight and financial planning is by no means cheering that fact that retirements may be lost.
 
--------------------------------------------------------------
We all work hard, and luck has more to do with being in a position to make a 175K or 90K pension than skill and desire. I would be elated at a 50K pension.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Perfectly put.



Mailman-

I going to agree with catyaak here. You are rubbing other pilot's noses in the fact that they have not been as fortunate as those with better positions. If anyone is being immature, it is you, for not having any graciousness to those who have to work very hard to earn what little they make.

"Enjoy your RJ's". If there is an emotion worse than envy, it would have to be gloating. I think you have this one mastered.


$175K pension down to $90K? Cry me a river. I'll save my concern for the fellows who have never made anything substantial and are now on the street.

To repeat the main question of this thread, where has this guy been spending his money. A big pension on top of years of high pay is not an excuse for not saving. It is unfair, but I am in no way sympathetic.

There are folks who are in danger of losing their homes.

I'm sure viewpoints similar to yours were heard at Versailles, shortly before some minor 'class envy' issues changed the landscape. Don't be so sure that things won't change permanently.
 
MailMan said:
Cliff you said:


I guess you're asking for it too, since you're retired military. I read about that in the Air Force Times every week. I believe , once again, you're envious that your retirement stinks compared to what a major airline Captain pulls in.......enjoy the BX privileges though:rolleyes:

To began with being retired military has nothing to do with my post.. So if you have to pick a fight I'll be happy to help you out..

1. Like me anyone could had joined the military as an enlisted man and worked their way up through the ranks and retired as a pilot or what ever... It just takes a little drive. Its a funny thing but its always true the guys who pick fights with retired military guys are the ones who didn't have the balls to do it themselves for fear of being a warrior..

2. Like I said in the first post-but will refine for you because you seem to look elsewhere for an answer- anyone that would buy into a retirement option that a company can control is a dumb ass looking to be screwed.. Especially company stock..
Rule a: Its my money I will control it!!
Rule b: If they give you stock sell it!!

3. My retirement is $2400.00 a month for life.. Then of course my wife gets 60% of that for the rest of her life.. I do enjoy it and I invested 22.6 years of my life for it.. Would I do it again? Yes I would.. Hell thanks for reminding me of my PX privileges.. Everything I buy there is tax free..

4. Respond to the post not what's on the guys bio... Get a hair cut..
 
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100LL... Again! said:
$175K pension down to $90K? Cry me a river. I'll save my concern for the fellows who have never made anything substantial and are now on the street.

This is the problem with this profession nowdays. Too many pilots are willing to tell the guys at the majors how much they should be able to make. It is really none of your business whether they get a 50k pension or a 150k pension. What you should worry about is that the managements are finding ways to circumvent contracts. If he was told he was going to have a 175k pension, he should get it. AAA mgmt should not be able to just gut his retirement plan.

To repeat the main question of this thread, where has this guy been spending his money.

That's really none of your business. If he decided to spend his money or save it, it shouldn't be any of your concern. He worked his whole career knowing that he was going to have a pension plan that offered him six figures. Now it just disappears and all you care about is how he spent his money?
 
RJ F/O You don't get it

Hard work, skill, and desire have nothing to do with someones ability to earn a 175K/yr retirement, It is due to luck that one ends up in that position. When it is based upon a company's assets and the company goes south, it no longer exsists, is it managements fault? is it the pilots fault because they elected to go to work for a company with bad management? Did management make bad decisions based upon employee pressures? How many pilot based managments have been successful in the aviation business? As an RJ F/O do you have the answers.
 
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Amazing,

That is my first reaction to the Goverment letting a company use the excuse of a pension to get out of bankruptcy.

As for the captain. All I can think is something my Dad said to me after 30 years at Eastern.

He said "son if it don't cost anything to sign up for the program. Sign. If it cost you, and you have no control. Look at me."

I remeber this every time I go to work. I do not trust corporate America. They only see the bottom line. Never the people.

My thoughts to the US Air people and families.

Best Wishes.
 
Re: RJ F/O You don't get it

pilotyip said:
Hard work, skill, and desire have nothing to do with someones ability to earn a 175K/yr retirement, It is due to luck that one ends up in that position.

It has everything to do with hard work and skill. The pilots at USAir and UAL worked hard to get to their positions at their respective airlines. Their jobs didn't just fall into their laps. I'm really getting tired of guys that don't work at Majors saying that major airline pilots only got their jobs through luck.

When it is based upon a company's assets and the company goes south, it no longer exsists, is it managements fault?

Yes. Management made a committment to fund these retirement plans. It is their bad management that lead to this situation. It is most certainly their fault.

is it the pilots fault because they elected to go to work for a company with bad management?

No. Many of these guys have been working at AAA for decades. The managements have changed time and time again. Blaming the pilots for working some place with bad management is ridiculous.
 
PCL_128 said:

That's really none of your business. If he decided to spend his money or save it, it shouldn't be any of your concern. He worked his whole career knowing that he was going to have a pension plan that offered him six figures. Now it just disappears and all you care about is how he spent his money?

He made it everyone's business, because when someone whines in a PUBLIC FORUM (like this Captain did) HE'S opening the door for the public to scrutinize his claims. He must've thought it was "our concern". In such a case, people certainly have the right to make value judgements to his condition, and offer their opinions even when it disagrees with your own. Your admonishment that "it's none of your business" is mis-applied.

Your response is based upon a false premise of your own imagination; "...all you care about is how he spent his money". On the contrary, I think everyone here has experessed how much it sucks for his pension plan to disappear. What you fail to grasp is that being the victim of bad luck/bad management/bad industry economics does NOT automatically make one a saint, nor does it automatically negate the fact that he might also be a complete moron when it comes to personal finances and setting priorities. This particular Captain is seeking to extend the legitimate sympathy factor by invoking a vague "working stiff" sob story of not being able to afford a car or education for his kids. I'm certainly not going to apologize for waving the BS flag on that claim.

Once again, a guy making over a quarter million $$ a year but can't save enough for his kids college obviously has his priorities screwed up...and yes, since HE brought it up it's perfectly acceptable to make that value judgement (one based on being a parent, the fact he's a pilot is irrelevant). Going on to complain about not being able to get a new car, quite frankly, makes him sound like a whiny baby.
 
The whole airline industry is managed badly, except at SWA and jet blue.All carriers are focussing on cutting cost, which only can go so far, none is trying to increase revenue. Did you know it's cheaper to fly on Delta, continental, united, Usair, AA on some segments than SWA? cheaper than the king of low fares? No wonder they are losing money. $200.- to London and back? What nonsense is this? I can't even paddle a boat across for this. Solution: raise the price of all these cheap tickets by $100.-. That's $15.000 on a 150 seat coach class plane. If you have 1000 departures per week with this type of plane per week, that's $15 million A WEEK! Are the airlines going to do it? Oh no, if only one doesn't, none of them will (see the NWA $10.- fuel surcharge from a week ago, 3 airlines followed, one didn't ,next day no surcharge anymore). Would people stop flying? No, maybe the first few weeks, but when they find out a cheaper ticket wil not be available, they will come back. In any industry you raise the rates if your income is lower than your costs, except in aviation, let's not pay the employees and reduce the rates (and ask the government for a bailout, maybe they should put some kind of pricing stipulation with these grants.
 
However, what in the h*** has this guy been doing with his money all these years. Has he no savings, investments, IRAs, etc.? My annual salary is a pitance compared to this guy, yet I manage to afford a new car, house payments, raising a family, and even manage to put money towards my retirement. I'd certainly like to think that making six figures I'd have a grand nest egg put away. Maybe thats just me?

We don't know, do we? Maybe he too a 50% bath in the post-tech bubble bursting. I'm down to 40% of my former value.

Regadless of esoteric discussions of skill, luck etc, I think that a pension should be sacrosanct. It's a part of the total compensation package that came out of contract negotiations. I am sickened by the class envy that is so prevalent these days. Who among us, finding ourselves in the position of senior captain at a major would give back their pay, saying "this is too much"? What a load of manure.

A deal is a deal. Maybe the only way to prevent this in future is to make the individual account the ONLY legal pension account.
 

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