Legality of Storing Fingerprints?

[your_dreamguy]

I'm a privacy advocate. I do not have a problem with taking my fingerprints for a background check to get hired by my airline. However, after my fingerprints are run, what happens to them?
To find out, I called the NFCC (National Fingerprint Collection Center). I spoke with a representative. Apparantly, the NFCC collects your fingerprints for all (or most) airlines. From there, the NFCC forwards your fingerprints to the TSA. I do not know what happens to your fingerprints at the TSA. From there, your fingerprints go the FBI. The FBI does a background check. After that, the rep at the NFCC claims that your fingerprints are stored with the FBI for 90 days. However, even though I had no evidence, I had a feeling that the rep at the NFCC was lying to me. I think that the FBI, permantly stores your fingerprints. If that is the case, how is that legal? I cannot think of any law that would make the storing of personal information by a government agency legal? Isn't this a violation of your civil rights? Most pilots, say, you shouldn't have anything to hide. I do not have anything to hide. By the way, the "you should not have anything to hide" argument is routinely used by police to persuade people into giving up their rights in illegal searches carried out by the police. Further, when your fingerprints are stored, your fingerprints are accesible to government agencies of other countries. Also, what happens if there is some abusive people who mis-treat your personal data?

You might argue that I have consented for the storage of personal information by a government agency in other ways...such as getting a passport. However, what is interesting about a pilot's situation is that this is a governmental requirement for employment with a private company (that is not a govermental agency).

What was strange about my conversation with the rep at the NFCC was that he agreed with my viewpoint and added that many pilots had contacted him and expressed the same concerns. Are there enough pilots out there with the balls to get ALPA or some other organization to institute a change?

 

[avbug]

Spoken like true yuppie larvae scum.

Who put that gun to your head and forced you to submit your fingerprints, brightspark?

Do you believe in "black helicopters," and "chemtrails," too?

Further, when your fingerprints are stored, your fingerprints are accesible to government agencies of other countries.

Quite the little law enforcement expert, aren't you?

I cannot think of any law that would make the storing of personal information by a government agency legal?

Do you know of any law that makes it illegal? Were you born yesterday?

Are there enough pilots out there with the balls to get ALPA or some other organization to institute a change?

Do "balls" really make you that stupid?

 

[Mevans]

Courts have treated fingerprints similar to a photograph of your face, you do not have an expectation of privacy in your likenesss, especially since you voluntaritly gave it to someone. Agree or disagree if you like, that is just the current legal statuts.

And yes the FBI keeps your prints, just like DMV keeps your picture they took for your license.

 

[starchkr]

Want the job????

Suck it up and shut it up!!!

Who cares where your fingerprints go! Only those who have a dark past should care.

You might be a privacy advocate, but you might as well get used to not having your privacy. You never have had it, and you never will. That's the day and age we live in.

 

[Snoopy58]

No!

No! Fingerprints, or credit report, or love letters to your girlfriend... it's all exactly the same, and should all be kept equally private, equally protected, equally inaccessible to any government, any creditor, any (other) girlfriend, um, ah, where was I now?

Oh, yeah, storing fingerprints... well DUH the FBI keeps them... DUH!!! What was the question again?

 

[huncowboy]

I thought FBI is indeed destroying the fingerprints.

As far as I go, I would have everyone's freaking DNA taken at birth, then the fingerprint at the ideal age.... there would be much less crime. Yes... some could get the short end of it, but compared to how much easier it would make it for law enforcement, I would take the risk for the huge benefit this could provide. I think I have read something about New Zealand doing this already.

 

[FN FAL]

I'm a privacy advocate. I do not have a problem with taking my fingerprints for a background check to get hired by my airline. However, after my fingerprints are run, what happens to them?

I had to submit fingerprints in duplicate to the BATF, who In turn sent them over to FBI for a background check. That was for two machine guns and a suppressor (silencer for you t.v. watchers). What do you think they did with those finger prints? whoo hoo!...they know where I live now!...whoo hoo! For all I care they can wipe their ass with em.

 

[sqwkvfr]

This one's pretty simple.

Positions of responsibility require that you give up some of your privacy.

You wanna drive that cop car, run a nu-cu-lear reactor for the Department of Energy or fly that airliner? You have to prove that you're a responsible person, or, at the very least, not a felon.....and this is one of the ways.

When I worked in law enforcement, I tired very quickly of all of the reviews, reports, dashcams, etc (living in a fishbowl)......until I remembered that I needed to be thankfull that I had a position of such responsibility that society thought that it needed powerful oversight.

 

[your_dreamguy]

Still No Answer

It's great that you have those opinions. We are allowed to have different opinions. However, no one has yet show me how this is legal. Maybe LegalEagle can help.
For example, if I want to land at an airport while the weather is below minimums, I would look into the FARS and find legal references. These legal refernences would show me if landing at an airport below minimums is allowed or not.
No one has done this for my original post. Where are the legal references as to how the FBI can store your fingerprints in a database for doing a transportation job. I don't know of commercial truck drivers or train conductors having their finger prints stored. Interesting, there are more commercial truck operations than commercial flights in the US.

 

[avbug]

Are you asking if there is a national database for pilot's fingerprints?

There isn't.

You want to know about the legality of retaining a record of a security check for law enforcement purposes. Where do you find any law indicating it's not legal?

 

[Chunk]

Re: Still No Answer

Maybe LegalEagle can help.

That rat bastard? If he's your legal go-to guy, you're in trouble with a capital T (with rhymes with P which stands for pool)

 

[Mevans]

You GAVE your fingerprints to sombody, the reason you gave them is immaterial. Lookng for a law that shows what uses someone cannot do with property you GAVE them shows a complete lack of understanding of our basic legal system. In general our legal system restricts behaviour, it does not in general, list allowed behaviour. Again there is volumes of case law for about 120 years that a person does not have a privacy interest in a likeness, photograph, a persons name, or other physical description . Fingerprints in this case, are a likeness, (photograph,) It is no different than if you gave your employer a picture of yourself, and they kept that, or gave it to the FBI, or put it on a billboard. All are allowed uses, not becasue there is a law that allows, but because there is not a law that disallows it.

There are many other worthwhile battles regarding privacy issues, pick a better one to fret over.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Are there enough pilots out there with the balls to get ALPA or some other organization to institute a change?

No...and run faster, the voices in your head are gaining on you.

 

[FN FAL]

I'm a privacy advocate. I do not have a problem with taking my fingerprints for a background check to get hired by my airline. However, after my fingerprints are run, what happens to them?

Your_dreamguy...below the scroll and paste is a link to the fbi's faq site on requesting information about your background check...at that site you will be able to click on the part where it says "For other questions related to this process click here." When you click on that, it'll take you to your outlook express and set you up so you can e-mail the department that handles this stuff...I'm sure they will be glad to answer your question.

1. What is the processing time?
Approximately 5-6 weeks for processing, upon receipt to the FBI.

2. Do you have procedures for expeditious handling?

The CJIS Division does not expedite requests, however if there is a
deadline, include this information in your letter and the CJIS Division
will try to work within the deadline if possible.

3. Can the FBI send the results to someone (or agency) other
than myself?

Under the Departmental Order 556-73, the results must go back to the
requestor.

4. Does the FBI *apostille?

(*An apostille is a document that has been "legalized" or "authenticated"
by the issuing agency. This is a process in which various seals are
placed on the document.)

No, the FBI does not apostille. If an apostille is requested, the CJIS
Division will provide a letter stating that this service is not provided.

5. What if my fingerprints are continuously rejected?

Have multiple sets of fingerprints taken, preferably by a fingerprinting
technician (this service may be available at a Law Enforcement Agency).
Mail all fingerprint forms to the CJIS Division with your request.

For other questions related to this process click here.

http://www.fbi.gov/hq/cjisd/faqs.html

 

[Timebuilder]

I was immediately struck by the words "I'm a privacy advocate."

That sounds interesting.

I'm curious, how does one determine an acceptable level of privacy? What exactly IS privacy?

While we no longer live in the mail-by-horseback days of the founders, we have a level of privacy that is dictated by our society and our technology. The more we take part in society, particularly in secure and sensitive activities, the more we can logically expect to be asked to give up a portion of our personal information as a prerequisite of that inclusion.

Most people go through life without ever being figerprinted. If you are interested in privacy issues, I'd recommend that you look into the violations of the Social Security Act that happen every day. Chew on this piece of scripture:

Rev 13:16 " He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,

17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Many have talked about this numbering of people, a "mark" that allows people to buy and sell. Possibilities include the SS number or a debit account number.

What makes it more interesting is that we have already developed subcutaneous passive transponders that activate and send out a signal when scanned. Right now, they are being used to find lost children and pets. Can we be far from the bankcard world using this technology to allow for easy purchasing? Could this eventually lead to an Orwellian ID system?

You betcha.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I didn't think it was possible...but it happened.

17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

...and by the way, that's not from the Bible...it sounds more like an Iron Maiden song. Geez.

 

[Timebuilder]

Of course it could happen.

We are talking about privacy, something which no doubt decreases with advancing technology.

Revelation is a prophetic book. It contains things shown to John that have yet to happen in his timeline. Things that will happen.

When it does, many will have to "run to the hills." (obscure Iron Maiden reference)

 

[Jmmccutc]

bud, they take your finger prints and steal them, you'll never see them again, ever...the FBI, CIA, FAA, will be searching for you forever, run...run fast...there is no way that you can escape...Mexico? did that ever cross your mind? every thing that you touch, can now be linked to you, and you're gonna be followed, hunted down, and spyed on...there is no such thing as privacy, you should just go get alot of water and live in a cave heavily armed and scared out of your mind that the boogie man is coming for you...face it, once they've got the prints your life will never be the same...

i just made all that up...

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Of courese it could happen.

When I said I didn't think it could happen, I was referring to the religious tone of the thread....not anything with privacy.

 

[FracCapt]

i just made all that up... [/B]

Dayum....good thing I read all the way to the end...I already had my rags ready to erase all my prints, my camelback full of water, and all the guns I could carry...going to find a cave(unfortunately, the only ones I know are water filled)...I just read all the way to the end to make sure I wasn't forgetting anything!

 

[FN FAL]

...there is no way that you can escape...Mexico? ...is no such thing as privacy, you should just go get alot of water and live in a cave heavily armed and scared out of your mind that the boogie man is coming for you...face it, once they've got the prints your life will never be the same...

I don't think you want to get caught in Mexico with guns on your person.

As far as mr. privacy advocate goes...if he's so interested in privacy, what is he doing posting stupid questions on the internet? With "carnivore" and the "patriot act", he's got nowhere to hide in cyberspace and with having pilot certificates, tax returns, a social security number, a drivers license and credit cards...he's got no privacy left outside of cyberspace.

If he gives me his last name and first initial, I can search his state's court records without probably having to pay a dime...here is the wisconsin site for looking up court records...it's free!

http://wcca.wicourts.gov/index.xsl

In addition, our state DMV sells your information to people looking at using your information for marketing...there's no privacy.

Chances are our Mr. Privacy advocate went to the mall today or was on a public street. His activities were recorded by private cameras, cameras owned by the government or even the laser scanner at the grocery store.

Those laser scanners collect your sales transaction data and it is sold to marketing research companies that do studies. The little bar code tag you keep on your key ring to get a few cents off the bill when checking out, help to tag you as a customer.

We just had a crime in our area solved by the police asking for video tapes from places like the gas stations in the vicinity of the crime. This college girl from minnesota faked her own kidnapping and was caught buying the items she used to fake her kidnapping like scissors, duct tape, etc, on video tape.

She is in deep doo-doo. She should have did her thing in Liberal Minnesota...cause Wisconsin is going to sue her for the 100 grand the investigation cost. I think the privacy she had before she gets convicted, will be sorely missed once she goes to the women's prison.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

Wait... another Wisconsite? Is this possible?

I work in a department store, and they hide the cameras in the **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**est of places. The camera is about the size of a pencil eraser and when placed in a wall, is invisible (and I know where to look). Plus they keep the tapes forever... We catch shoplifters daily.

 

[FN FAL]

those pencil and lipstick cams are everywhere in the pick and save I shop at.

Get ready for digital face recognition software and hardware to improve. It will be implemented in public areas by government and in private areas by shop keepers and business owners.

Soon digital recognition cameras will be used in traffic law enforcement, in place of the clunky speed trap cameras and stop light cameras in use today.

Your face will be readily identifiable as you speed by these machines, day or night and it will be identifiable as you sit and wait at a stop light, where these devices may be used to identify and locate wanted criminals or to issue traffic citations.

If Mr. privacy advocate thinks his prints being kept by the feds forever are a problem...just wait till national DNA registration is required.

In fact, I think what you will see someday is national DNA registration and when that occurs, you will provide your palm and finger prints as well as photos of your ugly cranium and probiscus.

Digital face recognition technology will be able to trace your path, where ever you go...as well as bio-metric reading devices secreted on door handles and railings in public and government buildings.

Biometrics will be used as access control in buildings in place of keys, so your employer will be able to know when and where you are at work also. Access control means: you'll have to give a thumb print to get into parking, to get in the building, to access the elevator, to use the locked lavatory for employees, to enter the break room, to use the copier, to turn on your computer, to access office supplies...etc etc etc. This access control will be recorded by a central computer. Things like this are done already for the last 15-20 years with the utilization of security access cards and readers. They let you in the door and they record the action.

Soon you will place your palm or thumb print on a cop's lap top during a traffic stop and your traffic citation will print out, bearing your name and address.

Good, bad or indifferent? Time will tell. I'm not paranoid...like I said...they already know where I live...so what difference does it really make if they have my prints, DNA or a digitized picture of me?

 

[FN FAL]

Wait... another Wisconsite? Is this possible?

ooops, I almost forgot...Greetings fellow cheese head!!!