Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
Legacy Contract flying
- Thread starter amt
- Start date
- Watchers 9
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
Gulfstream 200
Database Expert
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2002
- Posts
- 4,574
pilotgolfer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2005
- Posts
- 536
Is a noisy, unreliable, poor performing regional airliner ever succeed as a corporate jet?
At least it doesn't have de-ice boots on it !!
54fighting
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 16, 2002
- Posts
- 177
westwind driver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2004
- Posts
- 147
Gulfstream 200
Database Expert
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2002
- Posts
- 4,574
Is a noisy, unreliable, poor performing regional airliner ever succeed as a corporate jet?
I have not ever heard anything bad about the legacy. Maybe its a great corporate jet that did not work out as a regional.
LegacyDriver
Moving Target
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Posts
- 1,691
Just trying to get an idea of daily rates for Legacy 600 contract job:
- Per diem
- Stand-by/on-call
- Per day Flying
Also, is there a different rate for Int'l flying?
Thanks
Do you have a gig lined up?
What area of the country / world is it in?
Frankly, there's not a lot of it out there right now. The only people who can keep the contract flying going are the ones who are already established--everyone else has lost their currency or is about to.
It is all in flux. I had a guy offer me $300 a day. I told him to drop dead. A buddy of mine just picked up one at $1000 a day (but he's been doing this for *YEARS* and he has a lot of clients). The operators are all over the map on rates. ExcelAire will pay one rate while a private owner will have another.
If you need a permanent gig I may have a lead or two. I know of an operator that is a G-Whiz outfit that's buying a Legacy. They would probably be thankful to have someone under contract to help them learn the airplane.
PM me.
Last edited:
One would think that the problem with doing contract work in the Legacy is that there is alot of competition out there in the form of current or furloughed regional airline pilots (like yourself?). When a pilot is accustomed to being paid by the flight hour, and with FO's being paid so little (regardless of experience or flight time - it's about seniority), $300 a day would probably sound pretty good to a regional airline FO who would be eminently qualified in an EMB 145.
To your average contract corporate pilot, those wages are unacceptable. Your average contract pilot is out of pocket for recurrent, insurance, self employment tax, retirement, etc...
So the problem as I see it for "Legacy Pilots" is that there is a pool of pilots qualified and capable of doing the job, (type rated and current) who have been conditioned to work for low wages and will undercut the competition. Economics 101 - Supply and Demand.
Just as you are toying with the idea of entering the Corporate Contract flying world, others are contemplating the same thing. If someone DID offer you $1000 a day to fly the Legacy, how long do you think it would be before one of your out of work "brothers" offered to do it for $800 a day? Pretty soon you are down to $300 a day and before long someone is actually paying the owner to fly his jet. The regional airlines have already been through this cycle, and are still there.
To your average contract corporate pilot, those wages are unacceptable. Your average contract pilot is out of pocket for recurrent, insurance, self employment tax, retirement, etc...
So the problem as I see it for "Legacy Pilots" is that there is a pool of pilots qualified and capable of doing the job, (type rated and current) who have been conditioned to work for low wages and will undercut the competition. Economics 101 - Supply and Demand.
Just as you are toying with the idea of entering the Corporate Contract flying world, others are contemplating the same thing. If someone DID offer you $1000 a day to fly the Legacy, how long do you think it would be before one of your out of work "brothers" offered to do it for $800 a day? Pretty soon you are down to $300 a day and before long someone is actually paying the owner to fly his jet. The regional airlines have already been through this cycle, and are still there.
LegacyDriver
Moving Target
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Posts
- 1,691
Exactly.
The beauty of the Legacy is the common type with the ERJ (as compared to the CRJ / Challenger) but it is also a curse. The whole supply and demand thing indeed.
When I scoffed at the $300 offer the guy told me he could get ERJ drivers for $200 a day all day long. "I'm paying you above market."
Sad but true.
A lot of people look for any reason they can to justify paying less. The "Glorified RJ" argument is one many use, not because it is true, but because they can.
The beauty of the Legacy is the common type with the ERJ (as compared to the CRJ / Challenger) but it is also a curse. The whole supply and demand thing indeed.
When I scoffed at the $300 offer the guy told me he could get ERJ drivers for $200 a day all day long. "I'm paying you above market."
Sad but true.
A lot of people look for any reason they can to justify paying less. The "Glorified RJ" argument is one many use, not because it is true, but because they can.
Bad-Andy
waiting.......
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2002
- Posts
- 324
Yes, but can they keep it right-side up, let alone on course and legal??? I wouldn't trust a guy to fly a 172 for $200 a day, let alone a Legacy. And, how many of those ERJ guys have real international time (and no, I'm not talking about Canada and Mexico...) Back in the day, we were getting $1000 a day (2003-2004). Ahhh how times have changed...
pilotgolfer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 13, 2005
- Posts
- 536
The same thing can also be said of many of the fractional pilots. The day rates for the Citation X steadily went down when many of the FLOPS and NJ guys started free lancing. Its not just the Regional pilots who are guilty of this.
LegacyDriver
Moving Target
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Posts
- 1,691
DISCLAIMER: I AM NOT BASHING ANYONE SO RELAX. READ THE WORDS.
___
Andy, you and I both came out of the Regionals, so I'm not going to bash anybody there. We got a very solid foundation on flying the airplane in the 121 world. From my experience, the general rule is that the guys who came out of the RJ into the Legacy are much more techinically astute than the guys who didn't. Better procedures, better understanding of the systems, etc.. How many Legacy guys know how to pump fuel from one wing tank to the other by pulling the right CBs? Not many.
However, there is a steep learning curve when it comes to all of the rest of the job. They might be good at flying the airplane, but all the other nonsense that comes with Charter/Corporate takes awhile to learn.
I can honestly say that I was lucky to jump from the RJ to the Legacy when I went 121 to 135 otherwise I would have been really screwed. I can't imagine trying to learn a brand new airplane *AND* all the other nonsense that Charter guys do every single day. (I had to do a missed approach on my first ILS in the Legacy, too. Damned thing was so slick compared to a 145 I was just behind. My Check Airman was laughing at me because he knew I was going to do it. "Everyone coming from the ERJ does that the first time." Humbling let me tell you! Sucker felt like a moon rocket compared to the ERJ on the climb, too. Took some getting used to.) I saw more in my first year in a Legacy than I saw in four with the ERJ and wouldn't trade the experience for anything. Was fun but definitely a learning process.
You get what you pay for. I think the best bet is a guy who has both the 121 RJ experience *and* the 135 Charter background... That guy is worth a lot more than $300 a day.
Last edited:
Just curious: Is that a documented procedure?
Hugh Johnson
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2004
- Posts
- 684
I'd like to point out to potential contract pilots that YOU are responsible for the income tax and social security tax out of your daily rate. If you are in the 28 percent income tax bracket, add 17% (I think, it used to be that) for SS (your share and the share an emplyer pays,) and that is 45% to the government. Makes your $300 day about $165 after taxes. You can massage that number a little with deductions, but its a good benchmark.
LegacyDriver
Moving Target
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2004
- Posts
- 1,691
More thrust for one (compared to the LR) -- higher T:W ratio than all models--makes it run away from the RJ at identical weights. Also at identical fuel load we have more smash (I think our BOW might be higher but with 13 pax vs 50 we are a lot lighter at same fuel so...). I can't even remember the BOW on the ERJ...
She has a lot of aerodynamic improvements over the LR as well and they *do* make a difference.
Winglets, aileron/flap gap seals, wing root fairings, batt compartment inlet doors that close, belly tank fairing, slicker beacon fairing, bag door handle is flushed, better wheel fairings on the mains, no wipers, etc.. It has dozens of improvements and it makes a huge difference.
It takes 4 miles to slow an LR from 320 to 250 in a descent and 5 for the Legacy (something like that--I forget as I just do it by instinct now).
Last edited:
You are correct sir!
That is absolutely correct. Once again, the law of supply and demand. When you are competing with a pool of pilots that do not have to invest in their own training, and can out of domicile travel (or jumpseat), and have a schedule with fixed days off, it is going to be hard to command top wages in that particular a/c type.
As far as another poster mentioned about keeping the thing right side up etc.. Does anyone really hire contract pilots as the Captain? I will let them fly legs from the left seat if they are competent, but if it all goes to hell in a handbasket, it'd be my turn to fly (has never happened). I would think that even a low time (say 2000 hr) 121 FO would be pretty competent in handling the aircraft (even if clueless about all the other PIC responsibilities).
That is absolutely correct. Once again, the law of supply and demand. When you are competing with a pool of pilots that do not have to invest in their own training, and can out of domicile travel (or jumpseat), and have a schedule with fixed days off, it is going to be hard to command top wages in that particular a/c type.
As far as another poster mentioned about keeping the thing right side up etc.. Does anyone really hire contract pilots as the Captain? I will let them fly legs from the left seat if they are competent, but if it all goes to hell in a handbasket, it'd be my turn to fly (has never happened). I would think that even a low time (say 2000 hr) 121 FO would be pretty competent in handling the aircraft (even if clueless about all the other PIC responsibilities).
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
