Legacy Bashfest - Bring it on!

[Dangerkitty]

Whatever dude. I know exactly what a shadow is. And I am telling you that you have NO IDEA HOW THE EMB RADAR WORKS. PERIOD. If you have an area of ground clutter or rainfall that extends beyond your "shadow" area then you know you are painting a cell. You can manipulate what the radar shows you by adjusting gain. YOU CAN PAINT "NOISE" WITH THE ANTENNA POINTED UP 15 DEGREES BY MANUALLY PUTTING THE GAIN TO MAX! THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR PRECIP FOR THE RADAR TO SHOW NOISE. YOU CAN TELL A RETURN IS REALLY RAIN BY FORCING IT TO ATTENUATE AT A LOWER POWER SETTING THROUGH THE GAIN. I WILL QUOTE THE AOM FOR YOU AGAIN SINCE YOU COULDN'T READ IT THE FIRST TIME:


"NAVIGATION AND
COMMUNICATION
AIRPLANE
OPERATIONS
MANUAL
2-18-45
Page
12
Code
01 REVISION 6
ANTENNA STABILIZATION (STAB or STB)
The antenna is normally pitch and roll-stabilized by using attitude
information from the IRS. Momentarily pushing the STAB (or STB)
button disables antenna stabilization and an amber “STAB”
annunciation label is presented on the PFDs’ and MFDs’ radar mode
field.
RECEIVER GAIN (GAIN)
The GAIN knob is a rotary control and push/pull switch that controls
radar receiver gain. Two gain modes are available: calibrated or
variable.
Calibrated: When the GAIN knob is pushed in, receiver gain is preset
and calibrated, which is the normal mode of operation. In calibrated
gain, the rotary function of the GAIN knob is disabled.
Variable (VAR): When the GAIN knob is pulled out, the system enters
the variable gain mode. Variable gain is used for additional weather
analysis and for ground mapping. In the WX mode, variable gain can
increase receiver sensitivity over the calibrated level to show very weak
targets or can be reduced below the calibrated level to eliminate weak
returns. In the GMAP mode, variable gain is used to reduce the level of
strong returns from ground targets."



CALL IT A SHADOW. CALL IT A RETURN. CALL IT A DEADSPOT. CALL IT WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT. THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE REFER TO WHEN THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT PULLING A SHADOW OUT OF A RETURN. THIS IS HOW YOU DISTINGUISH PRECIP FROM CLUTTER!!!!!!!!!! If you are painting everywhere to 100 miles and in one spot only paint to 75 miles then you are probably seeing a cell. This is an X-band radar if I am right so it will attenuate fairly easily. The gain helps you interpret what it is telling you. Leaving it in AUTO will give you either all black, all green, a green egg for an area of heavy rain when you get close to it, or all green, red, yellow. The GAIN helps you determine what you are or are NOT seeing and helps you do so at greater range than leaving everything in AUTO.

Geeeeeze.....amazing what a lunkhead you are acting like over phraseology. I have asked you to correct the terminology and all you do is call me names. I am really trying to explain this in intuitive terms and it just isn't sinking in. Well, I may be a fraud but I can spot weather with an EMB radar better than you can obviously.

If you can't keep a civil tone then please go discuss this topic with the voices in your head.

The concept of a radar shadow is not an abstract conept. It has nothing to do with ground clutter. I have explained this over and over and over and you still don't get it. Then I give you a verbatim definition and you still dont understand it. Furthermore, you go off on the tangent about using the gain. Messing with the gain will do nothing when it comes to a radar shadow. Using the tilt might help a little but the gain will do nothing for you.

When you are messing with the gain all you are doing is changing the sensitivity of the radar. With a radar shadow (as I have explained countless time) the attenuation is so strong that the radar cannot tell you what is on the other side of the very strong precip. Changing the gain is not going to get the signal through that attenutation area. It can't be done.

You have got to be the biggest moron of all time to ever come the flightinfo. And after reading some of the posts here for a few years that really is saying alot.

You are such and idiot that you have no clue what a dumba$$ you sound like.

I have tried to explain a simple concept over and over and over to you and you still dont get it. Maybe someone else out there could explain what a radar shadow is to this ignorant douche bag?

Oh by the way ERJ-140 I am still curious about your job interview. You know from all those PM's yo got the night you were $hitfaced and made a fool out of yourself posting all those rambling messages.

How did it go?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Please someone else out there help me to explain to this idiot what a radar shadow is and the fact that using gain has nothing to do with it. I have tried to explain it as best I could but I guess when someone barely has a Private license and makes up airplanes he is typed in I guess they are not all that educated when it comes to aviation.

Red-Headed Step Child, we are all still wondering what happened with that job interview you were given through PM here on flightinfo. Are you going to tell us about it or are you only able to do so when you are highly intoxicated. You know when you came on here and typed out all those all those rambling messages about how we suck and anonymous people were cheering you on?

How did it go?

 

[banned username 2]

Does the world need his kind of baseless, tiresome, unsupportable nattering and prattling-on about how great it is? Well, that's one of those Big Philosophical Questions I can't begin answer here, but nowadays they make Discovery Channel documentaries trying to convince us that packs of hyenas are quite "interesting", how wonderfully "cute" octopii are, and Great White sharks needn't be feared (you irrational silly people!) because they kill and eat fewer humans every year than, say... crocodiles....which in turn (we find out the very next evening) are supposedly nothing more than loveable, overgrown newts. Given this condition we're in, I suppose it's no suprise that likewise even a hunk-o-junk Sh1tmachine like the WSCoD will produce a rabid, yet schizophrenic, fan.

Now THAT is a Dennis Miller "Rant" if I ever heard one!!!

 

[Lead Sled]

Please someone else out there help me to explain to this idiot what a radar shadow is and the fact that using gain has nothing to do with it.

This thread is getting stale. Guys like him will kill themselves with their fingers on the gain control knob. There is no real reason to screw with gain. Leave it at the "preset" and don't screw with it.

Radar shadows are caused by signal attenuation. Attenuation is simply the absorbsion or loss of signal energy as the radar pulse penetrates an area of preciptation. A signal that is fully attenuated is fully absorbed, with no pulses being returned to the radar R/T to be "painted" on the screen. An area of attenuation appears "blank" on the screen.

Airborne weather radars come in basically two different varieties: "X-Band" and "C-Band". The C-Band units are typically installed in larger transport category aircraft and use 24", 28" or 30" dishes. The X-Band units are typically installed in general aviation aircraft and use 10", 12", 18" as well as the larger dishes depending upon the size of the aircraft radome.

A radar shadow appears as a "U" or "Devil's Smile" ("Come on over here, Sucker!") Because of the EXTREME precipitation that causes signal to fully attenuate, it is EXACTLY where you don't want to be. There have been several accidents caused by flightcrew misunderstanding and misinterpreting their radar displays, for example, the classic example - Southern Airways DC-9 Flight 242 back in April of 1977. It appears as though the crew must have mistaken the "Devil's Smile" for an area of improving weather. Fatal mistake! Under those circumstances, you always want to fly toward an area where you're getting returns and avoid the radar shadow.

Attenuation, to one degree or another, is a factor every time you operate in precipitation. For example, our bizjets use X-Band radars with 12" or 18" dishes. In light to moderate rain, you would probably what to add one level of intensity to anything shown on the displays because of attenuation. If you understand the principle of attenuation, it becomes another tool that you can use to analyse the conditions that you are encountering.

Most pilots (including experienced airline types) have no real concept on how to use and interpret weather radar unless they've taken a formal course like Dave Qwinn's or Archie Trammell's.

'Sled

 

[Flechas]

You gotta love Archi, he'll put you to sleep in no time!!

He knows a lot though, he just needs to change the tone of his voice.

 

[Dangerkitty]

[/color]Most pilots (including experienced airline types) have no real concept on how to use and interpret weather radar unless they've taken a formal course like Dave Qwinn's or Archie Trammell's.

'Sled

Thanks sled, some really good info there and you are dead on.

Archie Trammell's presentations and info are the best. However, they will put you to sleep quicker than a dose of Ambien. Could that guy be anymore monotone?

He reminds me of Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off.

 

[Lead Sled]

Archie Trammell's presentations and info are the best. However, they will put you to sleep quicker than a dose of Ambien. Could that guy be anymore monotone?

I've been to 4 or 5 of his courses over the past 18 years. The company that I used to work for sent us every two years as part of our recurrent training. The last course that I attended was one put on by Dave Gwinn for Honeywell. IT'S FAR AND AWAY THE BEST WX RADAR COURSE OFFERED TODAY. PERIOD. Archie's is probably comparable to a high school level presentation; Gwinn's is definately college level.

'Sled

 

[Dangerkitty]

I've been to 4 or 5 of his courses over the past 18 years. The company that I used to work for sent us every two years as part of our recurrent training. The last course that I attended was one put on by Dave Gwinn for Honeywell. IT'S FAR AND AWAY THE BEST WX RADAR COURSE OFFERED TODAY. PERIOD. Archie's is probably comparable to a high school level presentation; Gwinn's is definately college level.

'Sled

Nice. The best one I have been to was at AA and was put on by an AA checkairman who was the radar guru for the airline. Very very indepth course in the way to use radar and understanding it limitations.

I will have to check out Dave Gwinn. Is there any videotaped presentations that one can receive?

 

[ERJ-140]

[/color]
Attenuation, to one degree or another, is a factor every time you operate in precipitation. For example, our bizjets use X-Band radars with 12" or 18" dishes. In light to moderate rain, you would probably what to add one level of intensity to anything shown on the displays because of attenuation. If you understand the principle of attenuation, it becomes another tool that you can use to analyse the conditions that you are encountering.

Most pilots (including experienced airline types) have no real concept on how to use and interpret weather radar unless they've taken a formal course like Dave Qwinn's or Archie Trammell's.

'Sled

Then let's put this phrase another way. I have thought of every conceivable way to phrase what I am talking about. How about, "Pulling a cell out of clutter" instead? Does that help? Like a friend of mine once said to his F/O after being asked which way he wanted to divert around the "next cell." "Yeah, ask Center which way they want us to divert around Cleveland." Lots of EMB drivers don't have the concept down. It's not a highly emphasized part of training (at least at some regionals).

You can tell a cell is a cell by seeing what is or is not behind it. The GAIN on this radar will show clutter in some areas and blank spots behind precip by varying the gain. I have done it many times in daylight just for practice to teach others. Leaving it in auto will often just paint green everywhere with no clear indication of intensity because it often all looks the same. I don't care what you call it, varying the gain and tilt as described works.

I am in no way going to kill myself of that I can assure you. I have plenty of experience with precip and radar in the EMB and have never had a problem. Leaving an EMB radar in AUTO gain will provide you at times with a lot of useless information. You absolutely MUST use the GAIN control with this radar (in addition to tilt angle variations) or you will find yourself (as clearly some have) in the middle of some very bad stuff.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Then let's put this phrase another way. I have thought of every conceivable way to phrase what I am talking about. How about, "Pulling a cell out of clutter" instead? Does that help? Like a friend of mine once said to his F/O after being asked which way he wanted to divert around the "next cell." "Yeah, ask Center which way they want us to divert around Cleveland." Lots of EMB drivers don't have the concept down. It's not a highly emphasized part of training (at least at some regionals).

You can tell a cell is a cell by seeing what is or is not behind it. The GAIN on this radar will show clutter in some areas and blank spots behind precip by varying the gain. I have done it many times in daylight just for practice to teach others. Leaving it in auto will often just paint green everywhere with no clear indication of intensity because it often all looks the same. I don't care what you call it, varying the gain and tilt as described works.

I am in no way going to kill myself of that I can assure you. I have plenty of experience with precip and radar in the EMB and have never had a problem. Leaving an EMB radar in AUTO gain will provide you at times with a lot of useless information. You absolutely MUST use the GAIN control with this radar (in addition to tilt angle variations) or you will find yourself (as clearly some have) in the middle of some very bad stuff.

Who needs facts and trainnig when you can use ERJ-140's "Uneducated and illogical use of Aircraft Radar." At your your local bookstores now.

 

[Dangerkitty]

By the way Red-Headed Step Child. We are all still waiting with much anticipation as to how your job interview went. Does the following quote ring a bell?

Ha ha ha! My pm list is 10:1 against you wankers. Everyone is saying "keep it up" or "screw those clueless idiots on flightinfo". I actually got an interview out of this thread! Ha ha ha!


FalconCapt is a loser. Still can't disprove 320 nm range at 390 with 8 pax and ifr reserve!


Haha ha ha! Ban imminent! Ha yha ha ha!


Losers and idiots all. Live in your fantasy world. I'm gone. Cya!!!



Legacy rulz. Peace.

 

[ERJ-140]

Who needs facts and trainnig when you can use ERJ-140's "Uneducated and illogical use of Aircraft Radar." At your your local bookstores now.

Nobody said avoid training. But train to use the equipment you have. I am asking you to rephrase what I am saying and all you come up with are smart a$$ remarks. Hey, at least now I know why you couldn't spot a Level 4. (I'd keep that information a secret if I were you.)

 

[ERJ-140]

By the way Red-Headed Step Child. We are all still waiting with much anticipation as to how your job interview went.

I said I was *OFFERED* an interview, I didn't say I *WENT* to an interview. I'm happy where I am. But thanks for your keen interest in my well-being.

It is interesting to note that FalconCapt has remained REMARKABLY silent regarding the published Embraer performance numbers and their alleged contradiction of my claims. Guess that means they -don't- contradict me.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Then let's put this phrase another way. I have thought of every conceivable way to phrase what I am talking about. How about, "Pulling a cell out of clutter" instead? Does that help? Like a friend of mine once said to his F/O after being asked which way he wanted to divert around the "next cell." "Yeah, ask Center which way they want us to divert around Cleveland." Lots of EMB drivers don't have the concept down. It's not a highly emphasized part of training (at least at some regionals).

You can tell a cell is a cell by seeing what is or is not behind it. The GAIN on this radar will show clutter in some areas and blank spots behind precip by varying the gain. I have done it many times in daylight just for practice to teach others. Leaving it in auto will often just paint green everywhere with no clear indication of intensity because it often all looks the same. I don't care what you call it, varying the gain and tilt as described works.

I am in no way going to kill myself of that I can assure you. I have plenty of experience with precip and radar in the EMB and have never had a problem. Leaving an EMB radar in AUTO gain will provide you at times with a lot of useless information. You absolutely MUST use the GAIN control with this radar (in addition to tilt angle variations) or you will find yourself (as clearly some have) in the middle of some very bad stuff.

Ground Clutter is ground clutter. A cell is a cell. If you are painting ground clutter then you need to adjust the tilt so that the very edge of the radar screen is showing a slight bit of ground clutter. By this technique you know what the radar's zero tilt is at. You can adjust your tilt accordingly to scan for cells above or below you.

Gain has nothing to do with it you clueless moron.

 

[ERJ-140]

Ground Clutter is ground clutter. A cell is a cell. If you are painting ground clutter then you need to adjust the tilt so that the very edge of the radar screen is showing a slight bit of ground clutter. By this technique you know what the radar's zero tilt is at. You can adjust your tilt accordingly to scan for cells above or below you.

Gain has nothing to do with it you clueless moron.

Yes it does, "moron". The Gain reduces or increases the sensitivity of what is displayed. You don't even have to "Paint" ground clutter. You can just "paint" "white noise" and see precip with that. If you have rain in front of it you'll see black behind it.

 

[Dangerkitty]

I said I was *OFFERED* an interview, I didn't say I *WENT* to an interview. I'm happy where I am. But thanks for your keen interest in my well-being.

BS, Falcon Capt (who is a moderator by the way) checked you PM box and found no such messages.

Once again you are showing to everyone here why we all know you to be a fraud and a liar. A compulsive liar.

 

[ERJ-140]

BS, Falcon Capt (who is a moderator by the way) checked you PM box and found no such messages.

Once again you are showing to everyone here why we all know you to be a fraud and a liar. A compulsive liar.

FalconCapt cannot possibly check every single message in my inbox, especially when I delete them when they arrive. Besides, did I say the interview offer was via PM?

Stick it in your pitot tube, pal. You are a whiny, unprofessional, incompetent jerk. Talk to yourself in the mirror. I'm done with you.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Yes it does, "moron". The Gain reduces or increases the sensitivity of what is displayed. You don't even have to "Paint" ground clutter. You can just paint "white noise" and see cells with that.

Keep messing with the gain around precip then. Sooner or later we will be reading about you in the paper.

Hope you have a will written for next of kin.

 

[ERJ-140]

Keep messing with the gain around precip then. Sooner or later we will be reading about you in the paper.

Hope you have a will written for next of kin.

You *must* manipulate the gain (AND TILT) periodically in precip to interpret what you see. If you don't, then you are an idiot.

 

[Dangerkitty]

You *must* manipulate the gain periodically in precip to interpret what you see. If you don't, then you are an idiot.

Well, then all my instructors at all the courses I have ever taken are all idiots.
American Airlines, Continental Express, Bombardier and FlightSafety. Every single one of them had no clue what they were talking about.

You on the other hand know everything there is to know.

 

[bigD]

LOL...this is priceless.

Seriously ERJ-140, do your parents know you're posting here all day? Don't you have chores to do or something?

 

[Dangerkitty]

Besides, did I say the interview offer was via PM?

uhhhhhhhh yeah. Just read a few lines down. These are in your own words.

Ha ha ha! My pm list is 10:1 against you wankers. Everyone is saying "keep it up" or "screw those clueless idiots on flightinfo". I actually got an interview out of this thread! Ha ha ha!


FalconCapt is a loser. Still can't disprove 320 nm range at 390 with 8 pax and ifr reserve!


Haha ha ha! Ban imminent! Ha yha ha ha!


Losers and idiots all. Live in your fantasy world. I'm gone. Cya!!!



Legacy rulz. Peace.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Stick it in your pitot tube, pal. You are a whiny, unprofessional, incompetent jerk. Talk to yourself in the mirror. I'm done with you.

Well ERJ-140, 2 Major Airlines, 1 very large regional airline, 1 nationwide on demand Part 135 jet charter operator, and 2 large Part 91 Corporate flight departments seem to disagree with your above statement since they all hired me to be a professional pilot for them.

By the way, what sorry flight department has hired you? For all we know you are a 15 year old pimple faced punk that is on summer break from school who has waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much times on his hands.

 

[Lead Sled]

Then let's put this phrase another way. I have thought of every conceivable way to phrase what I am talking about. How about, "Pulling a cell out of clutter" instead? Does that help?

I understand what you're saying, I just disagree with that technique.

Leaving an EMB radar in AUTO gain will provide you at times with a lot of useless information. You absolutely MUST use the GAIN control with this radar (in addition to tilt angle variations) or you will find yourself (as clearly some have) in the middle of some very bad stuff.

What about the guys who take it out of AUTO and fly into "very bad stuff" with the gain turned down because they forgot to put it back to "AUTO", "NORM", or "PRESET" in the heat of battle?

Ground Clutter is ground clutter. A cell is a cell. If you are painting ground clutter then you need to adjust the tilt so that the very edge of the radar screen is showing a slight bit of ground clutter. By this technique you know what the radar's zero tilt is at. You can adjust your tilt accordingly to scan for cells above or below you. Gain has nothing to do with it...

Absolutely correct. Under most circumstances, the safest (and easiest) way to pickout ground clutter from a return is simply the proper usage of tilt.

Now for a slight change in topic...

A significant percentage of bizjets, in addition to wx radar, also have some form of spherics detection equipment (Stormscopes). Radar is basically a "raindrop detector" and the Stormscopes sense the electrical charges associated with air movement. I've flown aircraft with the Radar/Stormscope combination for nearly 20 years now and I would find it hard to go back to having just radar alone.

In very simple terms, the Stormscope is used to decide what to circumnavigate and the radar is used to do the actual circumnavigation. I guess that if I had to chose between one system or the other, it would still be radar. However, the two systems are complimentary and together make it easy to provide your passengers with a safe and smooth ride. The very best combination that I ever used was in a Learjet - it had a vertical profile radar and a stormscope. That combination made interpreting what you saw on the radar display simple. (BTW, VP Radar only uses "tilt" to show the difference between ground clutter and precipitation.) Also, having both systems provides you with some redundancy.

ERJ-140, I'd suggest you attend one of Gwinn's or Trammel's courses. It will help clear things up for you.

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

I will have to check out Dave Gwinn. Is there any videotaped presentations that one can receive?

I think so. Check out www.davegwinn.com

'Sled

 

[Dangerkitty]

I've flown aircraft with the Radar/Stormscope combination for nearly 20 years now and I would find it hard to go back to having just radar alone.

I agree 100%. Just started doing that in a Lear 60 about 6 months ago. The stormscope really compliments the radar very very nicely. I had heard about it a while back and now that I have used them in conjuntion together I really like the setup.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Sled, very nice site indeed.

Hey Red-Headed Step Child go to www.davegwinn.com Right when you click on a link you will see a picture of a radar. In the 11 o'clock position there is a radar shadow behind a heavy cell. Plane as day.

Why don't you check the site out and try to learn something. I guess it is hard simulating precip and radar shadows on Microsoft's Flight Simulator.

 

[Dangerkitty]

Yes it does, "moron". The Gain reduces or increases the sensitivity of what is displayed. You don't even have to "Paint" ground clutter. You can just "paint" "white noise" and see precip with that. If you have rain in front of it you'll see black behind it.

Besides your definition of what gain is (by the way ERJ-140 everyone here knows what gain does) that statement makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Can someone please interpret the above? I am at a loss as to what WSCoDdriver is talking about. He might as well be speaking gibberish.

 

[bigD]

Can someone please interpret the above? I am at a loss as to what WSCoDdriver is talking about. He might as well be speaking gibberish.

Excuse me. I speak jive.

Translated: "I figured out a slick way to properly use the radar without having to first set the tilt to paint ground clutter on the edge of the screen, but then XP blue screened on me and I had to reboot."

 

[ERJ-140]

I understand what you're saying, I just disagree with that technique.

Thanks tremendously for that. I am glad someone sees what I am trying to say here.

What about the guys who take it out of AUTO and fly into "very bad stuff" with the gain turned down because they forgot to put it back to "AUTO", "NORM", or "PRESET" in the heat of battle?

Well, that's kind of like the guys who forget the speed brakes are out until they push up the thrust levers. The best solution is to leave your hand up there until you return the switch to "AUTO". Basically that is what I do. I manipulate the gain and if I have to move my hand off of the switch I first put it back to auto (excepting the unusual circumstance where what I am seeing in MAN gives me a better picture of what is happening).

Absolutely correct. Under most circumstances, the safest (and easiest) way to pickout ground clutter from a return is simply the proper usage of tilt.

The only problem I see is that the EMB radar paints so much ground clutter that tilt alone doesn't always seem to work.

Now for a slight change in topic...

A significant percentage of bizjets, in addition to wx radar, also have some form of spherics detection equipment (Stormscopes). Radar is basically a "raindrop detector" and the Stormscopes sense the electrical charges associated with air movement. I've flown aircraft with the Radar/Stormscope combination for nearly 20 years now and I would find it hard to go back to having just radar alone.


...

VP Radar only uses "tilt" to show the difference between ground clutter and precipitation.) Also, having both systems provides you with some redundancy.

The 880 comes with a lighting strike detection system (they call it a PSP or something like that) and, though I have never seen their version of it, am certain it would be a tremendous asset.

ERJ-140, I'd suggest you attend one of Gwinn's or Trammel's courses. It will help clear things up for you.

'Sled

I would be very interested in either. Would you suggest one over the other or one first then the other? Gwinn's sounds like the one to take. Where do you find out how to attend one?