Learned from that...I got one for you!

[StaticWick]

The other day I was invited along on a flight to handle radios during IMC that turned to hard IMC in a Duke. On the way back ILS 17 was OTS and had to shoot the GPS 35 (landing RWY35), MDH 1040' MSL (454'), ASOS wx at the time VIS. 1.25 miles, 400' OVC. Owner/Pilot flying claimed to have had 1000 PIC in this make/model. Going into this we said and agreed, we would see if it worked if not divert 20 miles grab a rental and drive back.

Prior to the approach I checked my side with his to make sure what I saw was on his side. The first thing he did was disconnect the AP (3-axis) 1 mile from the FAF ( I didn't say anything ~ maybe he needed practice??) and lowered gear and flaps to approach. Did ok on the profile until the last segment...I called out his 500', 300', 200', 100' and then the MDH @ 1100 and he went down to varying 980-1000'. His bank angles were in the 15-20 deg area tracking 356 course. Then I notice the nose coming up and airspeed dropping about 9-15 kts below Vmc (I called "airspeed a little slow"). I called "minimums" two or three times. Finally, I told him that it would save the occurrence of gray hairs on his head and more hair loss to mine if he'd just go missed. Much to my relief he did BUT we where so slow and dirty he had to lower the nose to gain speed! I saw 950 MSL/VSI -400 on my side of the panel (FYI- ILS17 MDH 775').

I later told him I saw the GIV Aspen crash, Paul Wellston accident just to name a few pass before my eyes. He said "well, we lived to fly another day." I found out later on the line-guys heard and momentarily saw us in the clouds fly by low at mid-field about the time we went missed. We had vertical visibility with the ground but nothing out the nose.

I don't want to sound FAA Regs or split hairs. I am trying to build my flying hours and was doing this flight for food. I had no idea the wx would go "south" before we returned. Maybe I need to just keep quiet (gear-up, shut-up) and "hope to fly another day"

Do you have a routine you follow if you are invited on a flight that works well?

 

[banned username 2]

When I was a CFI and would occasionally go along as a safety pilot with owner/operators, we would usually site down and discuss the flight first. We would go over the approaches and I would set a series of limits that if we exceeded we would immediately terminate the approach. This seemed to work well, everything was up front and there were no questions in the cockpit.

Never, ever sit back and let someone else fly you to your death...

Hope this helps...

 

[cvsfly]

Are you a professional pilot? Are you a CFI? Do you care to live another day? If you do you are obligated to speak up before during and after a flight, especially one like this. Don't accept that beause he claims to have umpteen hrs in a plane that he is competant. I've seen a few that have had thousands of hours but are not proficient on instruments, procedures, etc. As professionals we learn what is proper procedure and standards are. You really don't have to have a whole lot of hours to figure that out, so speak up to that 5000 hr pilot who is trying to kill you - and those on the ground - and raise our insurance premimums - and cause more unnecessary regulation - and cause airports to shut down. Its all related. Doing a ride along like this for experience is not worth it. A twin should never get below VMC except in a controlled training enviroment or rolling out on the runway - especially a PUKE - DUKE. Are you sure you didn't mean Vyse? Even then you should see Vyse until field is made, at least in that plane. Be assertive. If he does not appreciate your input then terminate the relationship. If you take flights like this for experience, then get as involved as you can in the flight. Know the weather, know the alternatives available. Don't be a passenger, especially a dead one. Fly safe.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

ditto.

be assertive and get used to being that way. These situations are exactly what you learn and use CRM for.

Good CFI's let the students wander a bit, but keep them within a safe range.

There is simply no reason to break mins on an IFR approach. Hunting for ground in a light twin with a weak instrument owner is the recipe for disaster. We are not talking about landing with 200 ft shy of the prescribed RVR here (which I don't advise..), we are talking about hitting hills and buildings!!!

If that attitude continues, dont fly with that guy, its not worth the few hours in a Duke. No way!

 

[LR25]

Be careful of the owner operators.

Its been my experience that you dont want to go out with these guys when hard decisions have to be made.

 

[LongBoarder]

Do you really want to work?

My questions are these;

1) Did you not post recently about flying a Duke under 135 for someone? I am going to guess that it is the same guy.

2) If he was to do this while you are on the plane, who is to say that he is not going to scrimp on maintenance? How many open squawks are on the plane?

3) Do you want to live a long life in aviation?

If you answered yes to any of these... walk away and find something better, it is not worth it.

LB

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I agree.

I have worked for 3 owner/operators. Every single one seemed Ok going into it but turned into a complete F'n Nightmare. I vowed to be stocking shelves at the nearest Depot after the last one...

Keep your eyes open for the next best thing.

 

[deadstick]

I had just about the same experience as 'Wick. It was my first flying job, too. I left within a week after lining up a new one. My life is worth more.

 

[StaticWick]

Re: Do you really want to work?

My questions are these;

1) Did you not post recently about flying a Duke under 135 for someone? I am going to guess that it is the same guy.

2) If he was to do this while you are on the plane, who is to say that he is not going to scrimp on maintenance? How many open squawks are on the plane?

3) Do you want to live a long life in aviation?

If you answered yes to any of these... walk away and find something better, it is not worth it.

LB

1.) Yes

2.) Very good point ~ I had not thought of that. This is why I wanted to lay this out before you guys. I knew something in the back of my mind was troubling me. As a CFI I do let a few things slide for the sake of learning, but only in VFR controlled conditions not at minimums. I probably was reverting back CFI with this Owner/Pilot. I gave hints of impending doom but he just didn’t take the hint. Even knowing that the land was flat as Kansas at this airport and the nearest antenna was 10 miles away. (But nearest water tower was 1 mile west of the airport.) I still was climbing the walls.

3.) Yes...

Thank you all for your input. Often looking at a situation from another angle is all that is needed. I really did learn from this...if the relationship is to continue I will be sure that this was only a fluke not to happen again. I always give someone the benefit of the doubt. But I’ll remove the doubt before I get in the airplane again.

Gulfstream does Home Depot pay better than regional pay?

 

[JediNein]

One court case comes to mind where a DPE took over on the controls from an applicant during a checkride. Either the applicant or the insurance company was suing the DPE for being PIC and causing the accident. The Judge determined that the DPE was not PIC per FAA regulation, the applicant was PIC. The Judge also stated that he was glad the DPE intervened saving the lives of all on board and would have found the DPE negligent if the DPE had not taken over.

When 'Joe Blow the Super Pilot with X,XXX or XX,XXX hours' tries to kill me, I am no longer passenger. I am CFI, PIC, SOBIC, HBIC, and invoking my right to self-defense. I will win a fist-fight for the controls. I will have a conversation with the other pilot(s) on the ground once we live through whatever situation. If that pilot is not a client, I will never board an airplane with them again. If that pilot is a client, that conversation may last quite a while. I am not dying for someone else's ego problem.

As a CFI, I earn my living on being able to suggest an appropriate course of action that avoids situations. It doesn't matter if I am sitting back seat. If I had knowledge that could have avoided a situation and I did not share that knowledge, I'm just as negligent as if I was sitting front seat and didn't grab the controls.

The preflight briefing is all-important when it comes to flying in a position other than CFI. Use humor in that brief. Put the other person at ease. If they are sensitive to hours or more experience, do what you can to reassure them. If they are offended that you consider it your option to take over if needed, no matter how remote that possibility is, perhaps you don't want to be flying with them.

Another important aspect of flying is the ability to say, "No." If you can't say no, then you have to put up with whatever you get. If you can not set boundaries and keep your job, do you really need the job so badly that you get trampled or killed?

Once aloft, there is a two challenge rule that is generally accepted in the airlines and military as a standard component of CRM. The other pilot has two chances to respond to the first pilot's queries before the first pilot takes over assuming incapacitation. Gotta use the judgment skills, is there time for two challenges?

My line used to be drawn in sand. It's now in 6 foot thick reinforced concrete. I'm still alive. My first CFI and dozens of friends are not. You'll have to find your line and make it stick. Once you do so it will become much easier to avoid crossing or even getting near your line. You may also find yourself sleeping better at night.

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein

 

[OPECJet]

I've worked for a couple of owner / operators, and have been lucky that all have been professional in their flying.

I still have the attitude that anything he does with the airplane is going to affect me the same as him. Possibly more in some places since a violation wouldn't mean much to them, just an inconvenience. If something is going awry, it's your duty as the non flying pilot to point it out. Even in a single pilot airplane, the possibility may be there for you to feel the heat from the PIC's screw up.

Just keep the shiny side up, and if you feel this guy is going to cause you trouble, stay away. Your certificates are way more valuable than a couple of hours in a twin.

 

[deadstick]

Once aloft, there is a two challenge rule that is generally accepted in the airlines and military as a standard component of CRM. The other pilot has two chances to respond to the first pilot's queries before the first pilot takes over assuming incapacitation. Gotta use the judgment skills, is there time for two challenges?

Unless it's briefed andthe person in the right seat is expected to perform as a crew member, then, really s/he is just a passenger who happens to be licensed and sitting up front. The prior understanding and briefing are the key points.

I believe there is an interview question out there that is phrased something like "What would you do if the Capt descends below DH/MDA?" "First time?" "Second time?" This is a little different because this is a two-crewmember scenario. The Duke one is not.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

you are just a licensed passenger sitting up front so CRM does not apply....wow.

theres some solid advice!

I would venture to guess the FAA (or your family) would think otherwise!

 

[deadstick]

What I was trying to say is that CRM, if the guying the left seat feels he's single pilot, doesn't matter because he's not going to listen. He's the pilot. That's why I was trying to stress the need to brief duties BEFORE the flight. Just like I saw an instructor climb into a plane for a checkout and the first thing he said, is "You're PIC."

 

[Kingairrick]

The other day I was invited along on a flight to handle radios during IMC that turned to hard IMC in a Duke.

I think the problem might lie somewhere in that statement. I know that the Duke is a single pilot airplane, and I know how it is to need all the multi time you can beg borrow or steal. However, if you agree to go on a flight in the front seat, agree that you will act as a crewmember. That means CRM, not just "handling the radios."

I fly with FOs in my single pilot certified airplane. Many of them have much less experience than I do. But I pay them to speak up and tell me when I'm screwing up. How many hours I have(or don't have,) doesn't matter.

As for owner operators, I'll put my family in an airplane with a 500 hour flight instuctor long before a 3000 hour owner operator any day. Most insurance companies feel the same way, and there is a reason. It's called professionalism...

As always, just my .02

 

[StaticWick]

Thank you ALL for your replies!

But I believe in retrospect Rick is dead on and I was "dead" wrong in my pre-brief or lack-there-of. I got into a plane with the understanding of CRM but the pilot (PIC) did not acknowledge that or understand this in which it was my mistake in not performing a solid brief as mention by Deadstick. I actually thought of those questions you spoke about...and folks declaring miss may work in a 121/135 operation but it doesn't mean hoot to the PIC in this situation in which I found out real quick!

JediNein~ I actually thought you were going to talk about the DPE who took over the controls of an MU-2 from the owner pilot and landed on the water runway at New Iberia, LA - KARA Acadiana Regional (check the airport diagram out). My boss and I where joking about that because the water was “dark-looking” giving it the appearance of a runway. The FBO folks said they had two incidents about an Archer and an MU2 landing in the 5' deep runway 16w/34w. The MU2 story was better than the archer pilot landing at night on it. They said there was good size catfish in the water. Of course the MU2 was a complete mess I don’t know the outcome although the owner did try to make the FAA pay for it. From my understanding they were just going to land there wasn’t a life-or-death scenario happening at the time. I wonder if the Archer pilot saw frogs eyes just before he flared and wonder what those shiney dots were!

 

[ruhroa]

I will chime in with this..........................................

Don't let the desire to get a thicker log book lead you into a situation like this.......

Because when they bury you with the log book it won't matter how many hours you have gotten ..................................

 

[K.V.]

Don't let the desire to get a thicker log book lead you into a situation like this.......

Because when they bury you with the log book it won't matter how many hours you have gotten ..................................

Now that's deep!

 

[100LL... Again!]

My personal take:

I don't fly unless a have a reasonable idea of the quality of maintenance.

I don't fly if the person has a 'reputation' for not listening to CFIs.

I politely make sure that they know I have veto authority for anything I feel is unsafe.

Life is too short and our certificates are too valuable to let some dork and his "1000 hours" in make and model get me violated or injured.

Rule of thumb: The bigger the talk, the worse they fly.


Oh, and JediNein - will you marry me? I'll let you do the flying...

 

[JediNein]

Oh, and JediNein - will you marry me? I'll let you do the flying...

How about we take turns on the flying?

Fly SAFE!
Jedi Nein