Lear 60 vs. 45

[LJ45]

I have 1700+ hrs in the 45 and now the 45XR. The 731-20AR after aircraft serial number 73 or so is a 731-40 with out the deep flutted nozzle and the software to put out the power of the -40. When we upgraded our 731-20AR to the 45XR engines, which they call the "BR" mod for us, the climb power with and without ice on is great! We now make 390 is 13mins at mid weights. When we go straight to FL450 it will go right to the .81 MMO even in ISA + conditions. I have seen 470kts true at FL410 and 460kts true airspeed at FL470. All of this was a software up grade to the engine computer which controls the power.
The rumors are they will stretch the 45 fuselage @3 feet make it taller and wider (ie 60 size) open up the power (TFE-731-40) add a little more fuel. We are ready for one...how about you?

 

[pilotpair]

45 vs 60

LJ45

What is the increase in flight time range with the "BR" engine?

Thanks!

 

[pilotpair]

I also meant to include the XR upgrade in my above question.

 

[joelo88]

speaking of -40s, has anybody here flow a DA50 with them? upgraded or 50EX?

 

[LJ45]

Range

No big change in range...maybe a little increase (less than 100 miles) because of the ability to get to altitude quicker and higher initial cruise altitude. What is nice is we can take 8 pax with bags, full fuel and go at least 1800nm.

 

[LJ45]

more info

What is cool .... @14,000 ft. the engines roll up to 100% N1 and will stay there unless it gets cold (ISA -5 or so). When you reduce the power from MCT ( max continuous) to MCR ( max cruise) it doesn't change at most altitudes and OATs. We now make more power at altitude at MCR then we did at MCT before the mod. ISA + in the 40's you will see 100% N1 and the ITT are 100 degrees from redline.

It really added a lot of power to the airplane...I can't imagine not getting the 40XR or 45XR when buy a new airplane. I bet this will become the standard!

 

[bizjet800]

The Lear 40 and the 45 have great brakes. I have flown them both and enjoy them equally. As for the 800 foot stopping distance, I sure hope you don't have any loose items on board-like toilet water. The 40 has plenty of power, but could always use more. The 45 is slightly underpowered since it weighs a little more. I hear the 45XR has plenty, and a 40XR? Now that's a hot rod! I don't know anything about the 60, but I hear it's just a little under powered as far as rockets go.

 

[HMR]

What is nice is we can take 8 pax with bags, full fuel and go at least 1800nm.

Or you could get a slightly used Astra SPX for less money and take the same load 1,000nm further at .84.


PS-The brakes will rip your dentures out if you're not careful.

 

[banned username 2]

speaking of -40s, has anybody here flow a DA50 with them? upgraded or 50EX?

I have about 2,000 hours in a 50EX... What did you want to know?

 

[LJ45]

HMR..got a few questions for you

Hi HMR,

We are considering the NEW G150, and since it sounds like the same performance as the G100 can you give me some insite?

1. What is you initial cruise Alt. ..say on a 1200nm trip with 4 pax.

2. is that you normal mach .84 and what alt. and other infor at mid weights for
FL 410, 430, 450

3. does it like to fly at FL 430 and 450 are do you need to be light.

4. How are the boots any problems.

5. Baggage space?

6. Maint. and parts issues?

7. What do plan for 1 hr 2nd and 3rd fuel burns.

8. anything else would be helpful in our decision.

thanks in advance!

 

[Lead Sled]

We are considering the NEW G150, and since it sounds like the same performance as the G100 can you give me some insite?

1. What is you initial cruise Alt. ..say on a 1200nm trip with 4 pax.

2. is that you normal mach .84 and what alt. and other infor at mid weights for
FL 410, 430, 450

3. does it like to fly at FL 430 and 450 are do you need to be light.

4. How are the boots any problems.

5. Baggage space?

6. Maint. and parts issues?

7. What do plan for 1 hr 2nd and 3rd fuel burns.

8. anything else would be helpful in our decision.

thanks in advance!

LJ45...
As far as the SPX/G100 go, you can always count on 460 to 470 KTAS at fuel burns of +/- 1800 pph the first hour and +/- 1,300 pph every hour after that.

You can almost always climb to direct to FL410 and usually 430 as well. FL450 is usable once you're down to around 20,000 pounds or so which is to say, it's a very realistic altitude as well.

Some folks bad mouth the fact that they use boots. (So did I in the beginning.) The fact is that the airplane handles ice very well and it is very slow to accumulate ice. I've operated the airplane world-wide in all types of weather (nearly 3,500 hours worth) and I can count on one hand the number of times that I've ever had to pop the boots in self-defense. The nice thing about boots is that they are "de-icers" not "anti-icers" and don't cost you any aircraft performance when you use them - as opposed to the heated leading edges on some of the other aircraft out there.

Baggage is not a problem. There are two baggage compartments - a small one in the lav and a large heated compartment in the aft fuselauge between the engines. There is also a 100 gallon fuselage extension tank that comes with the airplane. The tank is mounted in the forward part of the baggage compartment; but, unless you routinely fly with 4 passengers or less, I'd leave it out. It can be easily installed when it’s time to blast off to Hawaii or Europe. It provides less than 30 minutes of fuel and takes up about 1/3 of the baggage compartment.

The airplanes are very reliable, you just have to have a mechanic that knows how to read. In the past, there have been some "issues" with the Slat/Flap system, but it's not an issue if the airplane receives proper and timely maintenance.

I don't believe that there is any mid-sized airplane out there that will give you as much "bang for the buck". The big negative with the current Astra series is the size of the cabin. It has 5+ hours range and a 3 to 4 hour cabin. That being said, it's still pretty comfortable even with all of the seats filled and it's pretty easy to give your passengers a good ride, it handles turbulence well, and it's pretty easy to get consistently nice landings. The G150 ought to address those criticisms quite nicely.

'Sled

 

[joelo88]

I have about 2,000 hours in a 50EX... What did you want to know?

in relation to time to climb and initial cruise alt, I was just wondering how much of an improvement the -40s provided. You don't have to go and pull your books out, I'm just interested in some general info. Thanks Falcon Capt.

 

[HMR]

Hi HMR,

We are considering the NEW G150, and since it sounds like the same performance as the G100 can you give me some insite?

Lead Sled said it better than I could have. He knows more about Astra's than anyone. Trust me, I always sit next to him at FSI.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Bombardier would really have something with the 60 if they did the following:

Updated the Brakes. Put Brake-by-wire in the aircraft. If my Aunt's BMW has it, I am sure Bombardier can put it in a multi-million dollar jet!!!!

Dump the stupid nose wheel steering button/pedals and put in a Tiller!!

Installed EVS

Trailing Link Gear to go along with those new brakes

Took the wing off of the big CRJ and adapted its size, ect and developed it for the 60. That leading edge slat would do the 60 wonders. (low ref speeds and more fuel)

Added a 6 foot plug to the cabin (as of now, it's really a comfortable 6 person airplane at best)

Stayed with the P&W engines (they are real powerhouses)

Slapped in a set of Auto-throttles

Increased Mmo

Put Honeywell up front (just my opinion)

Finally, track down some of the pilots/owners that demoed the 60 in the past 5 years but went with something else and find out why. Along with that, do something no other A/C manfacture has managed to do; stockpile spare parts, not the ones that nobody needs, the ones that actually break!!! Revamp customer service; get rid of the "Well, we have done it this way for such and such amount of years, no reason to change it now" and the "Well, they've been customers serveal times, so Fu@k 'em, they'll still buy from us" people. Show them the unemloyment line.

Maybe the CL300 has all of the above??????????

 

[ultrarunner]

I've been in the 60 for just over a year now. It's a good airplane. Gets a bit tight in the back with 7 pax on a westbound trip, but it's a good 5+hr plane at .76.

The wing doesn't flutter, as someone posted. You do get some airflow separation at the winglets when flown at MMO at higher weights. The wing is not as highly loaded like a Dassault product, so it doesn't ride the bumps nearly as well.

I always set power for .76/FL410 at heavy weights. After an hour you can do .78 or .79 and not worry about the winglet buzz.

If you're not a brake jockey and not using 5000' foot runways all the time, you'll go a long way on the brakes. I'm at almost 300 landings so far, and fully expect to get 600 landings out of them.

I know the flex guys don't really care about them, and hammer them all the time, but folks with a gentle approach will get good life out of them.

Mach hold wold be great, and there is an outfit that is willing to retrofit it. Not too big a job since it's done at the FADEC.

All in all, it's been a good airplane for us.